A year and a half later, back on Greenlight

After being successfully Greenlit in April 2015
My game, Blood Sweat Gold is back on Greenlight.

It’s a pretty odd situation. I’ve never heard of a game that was Greenlit going back through Steam’s voting system. Let me explain…

In December 2015, I scrapped the entire design and a half complete game and went back to the drawing board. Originally, this was a traditional hex based tactical RPG, along the same vein as a Final Fantasy Tactics. And that was the problem. At core, the game didn’t feel like much more than a crappy version of a thousand other turn based games. It didn’t really do anything new or different.

A year later, I finally have something that I believe is really good.
But I didn’t feel it was right to launch under the same Greenlight campaign I ran over a year ago. The game has changed far too dramatically and almost nothing from the original remains.

Why should the game be Greenlit at all? Well, let me tell you about the design I worked very hard on:

Combat on a solid foundation: hybrid Real Time + Turn Based
Inspired by classic isometric games like Divinity Original Sin / Infinity Engine Games

Divinity Original Sin boasts one of the most innovative designs in RPG gaming I’ve ever seen. Most people think of the elemental combat system as their main innovation, and it is truly amazing, but DoS has smaller fundamental innovations beneath that, a combination of:

  • Gridless Map (and the complications that come from this)
  • Seamless Combat Transition
  • Action Point Based Movement

It’s surprising how few (western) turn based games opt for the Gridless map, but there are very real complications and compromises that arise from it. The way that exploration seamlessly transitions into turn based combat in DoS is elegant, and the gridless system meant that they could build a rich world, with rolling hills and rich environment.

Something about movement in DoS felt liberating because of the map. I felt liberated, free to make my own choices unrestrained by squares or hexes.

I tried to take that feeling of freedom and lack of restraint to the next level.


A zoomed out camera in real time mode

Flexible control over the camera both at 3rd person and top town view.


Close up and personal

Analog style controls to make the player feel as connected to his characters as possible
Mordheim, City of the Damned was my main inspiration for the analog style WASD controls and use of 3rd person camera, Valkyria Chronicles also played a huge role in designing core system, and of course the Firaxis’ XCOM reboot in changing the sensibilities of turn based games in general.

My goal was to make turn based combat into something more visceral, more immersive and more fluid than you generally find in western turn based games.

Turn Based Mechanics are kind of Surreal
So I tried to build in a subtle, but surreal visual representation of time

I believe that turn based game designers have taken for granted the fact that most turn based players accept the bizarre mechanics of turn based movement. “You go, I go, you go…”. I felt that it was important that we as a genre start to address the idea of how time works.

But, truth is, time in turn based games is a very odd beast. You cannot truly make sense of the mechanics involved without really getting into crazy super hero stuff. So I compromised.

My approach then was not to entirely freeze time. Instead time is presented in a warped semi surreal state. Wind still blows through trees and grass, characters are allowed to move very slightly, but will often be frozen in place. I apply a partial desaturation to the camera.

It’s hard to tell here, but the primary character is moving his head - time isn’t totally frozen

Peasants frozen in place as they flee

Manipulating animation and ‘time’ like this was technically challenging
The development of this system was surprisingly technically complex. Animation is run using Root Motion 100% for movement, and handling very rapid shifts in animation speed along with navigation, animation, and responsiveness to attacks and other events got very tricky very fast.

AI movement had to run simultaneously in order to keep consistent with ‘time’
The player still needs to be presented critical events, like when they’re getting attacked. So these attacks and other critical events are clearly presented and never interrupted.

A side benefit of implementing AI this way is that the game can support engagements that are huge by turn based standards. I can introduce large scale combat in a way that I’ve never seen done in turn based gaming.

Here’s an early prototype of a larger scale AI vs AI battle running in realtime:

Very few turn based games are capable of presenting these kinds of scenarios because the turn time becomes absurdly long. I haven’t had a chance to build this functionality into actual scenarios yet, but it’s a huge area to explore, with potentially great gaming moments.

Combining all of this together in a turn based game posed real challenges.
Traditionally, most turn based games have very limited viewing areas. By allowing full real time movement and turn based combat with a camera that can be dropped over shoulder, there were problems.

Originally I had hoped to follow convention and dramatically limit the players view, I did research on Fog of War systems, and experimented with some very strange ideas.


Experimenting with Fog of War + 3rd person camera. Yikes!

In the end, I had to just allow the player a natural viewing area, and although I do use heavy fog, it’s for atmosphere, not to obscure the player’s view.

Instead of cheating by limiting view, I just allowed the AI and the player to interact at potentially long ranges. AI will begin to respond to you at ranges of up to around 100 meteres. This ends up creating some very unusual game play patterns.

Interacting at about 50 meters


Enemies visible at distance

Since enemies can rush in to reinforce each other from long range, combat can have a more fluid feel. You don’t have reinforcement timers or scripted events, instead, you just look at the reinforcements, try to judge how far they are and how long it’ll take to get to you. It ends up becoming fluid and has even very minor emergent qualities.

There are trade-offs here, you lose some of the distinct separation in having entirely disconnected encounters one screen away from the next as one combat encounter can bleed into another. But I believe in this case, it’s an overall positive as it builds a cohesive experience.

Not “A SUPER REVOLUTION IN GAMING”
But it is a unique spin on Turn Based Combat.
I worked very hard to contribute something to the genre and try to do something new.

Although nothing in BSG is revolutionary the total package is something that I’ve never seen done before in Turn Based games. I believe that there are meaningful contributions to the genre, things that really haven’t been done much (or at all), while still feeling natural to turn based veterans.

If you’re interested, you can view some raw game play footage here

Unfortunately, it isn’t doing particularly well on Greenlight.
It can’t break the all important 50% yes vote barrier and that’s a very real concern. The voting has flatlined and steam is not pushing many people to it. I’m worried about the games future, and more importantly, about the release I’m hoping for very soon.


The total voting flatline has me a little worried, I won’t lie.

I spent a tremendous amount of time and effort building this. I am proud of the work, I’m proud of the design, and I really think it deserves a little exposure.

I would really appreciate your help with a vote on the Greenlight page
maybe even sending your friend a link

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=835778142

Thanks guys (and girls),
Frosted

PS: @Kiwasi and @MV10 I still owe you guys a build!

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Wow! This looks & feels (just based on the video) so much better.
I voted yes and posted on my Twitter about it here.

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Thanks a ton man. I’ve really worked myself to death over the last 6 weeks trying to get this thing ready for Greenlight.

I’m really tired - and it’s nice to hear someone excited :slight_smile:

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I’m sorry but starting a new Greenlight campaing sounds like a total waste of time. You already have an AppId, you should be focusing in getting the store page ready. With the market so saturated you should be getting more eyes in your product and a store page does it much better than a Greenlight campaign.

I can’t avoid believing that you are a victim of your own insecurity.

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Maybe you’re right @Kondor0

I just honestly imagined my first few comments on the store page being “WTF THIS IS NOT THE GAME WE VOTED FOR”. I wanted to keep respectful of the Steam community.

I also felt that this design was new and innovative and that maybe there would be some fresh interest. It’s really kind of unique in the genre. Obviously it was wishful thinking, but I thought maybe it’d even attract the eye of a website or streamer or something.

I still think it was the right thing to do, even if it’s going a little rough.

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Looks awesome. It’s just a detail/my opinion, but I think it’d be more fluid if you played the death animation right away instead of stopping time for a bit after killing blows. Also, good luck with your campaign.

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You got a vote from me. Hammer and Sickle built a love for tactical RPGs into me and this looks like it has really interesting combat.

I will say, it doesn’t look like you’re focusing very much on the story or the setting. And I’m not saying that’s necessary, but for me it really is–I’m not likely to play a game unless the story intrigues me on some level.

You have to consider what you’re presenting. The combat looks interesting, but the environment…doesn’t, really. Nor does the story or “conceit” seem important. It just looks like a bunch of combat. And if that’s all you want, fine–but you may lose people because of that.

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@EternalAmbiguity ,
I very much agree with you. I’ve been working to build out the rest of the game to match the quality of the combat, but this area (the strategic layer) has been challenging to say the least.

I’m trying to build out an agent driven environment, similar to Mount and Blade (in the family of Sid Meier’s Pirates). But I’m not sure exactly how it’s all going to end up, as it’s still very raw.

I didn’t want to promise features I couldn’t deliver.

Here’s the map as of a few days ago:

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I think you are self-sabotaging because you could have explained the changes in your forum and I’m pretty sure most people wouldn’t care but whatever the damage is already done.

Regarding your votes count, I wouldn’t worry. My last game passed with less than 400 votes in 20 days.

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Went to vote and discovered I had already voted. I don’t remember doing it either. Must have been half asleep. :stuck_out_tongue:

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The trailer seems horrible to me.

First of all, the first 15 seconds you can completely cut. Then it says that it’s a turn-based game, but the dude is running around in real time. Confusing. Some time later, the turn based system kicks in. Too late in regards to the claim that it’s a turn based game.

Then i dont really know what’s going on even with your dev comments, and since you’re playing the game the camera jumps too frequently to make pleasant viewing.

“The camera is fully customizable” is your first bullet point… Is that REALLY your most important feature? Well, it’s not actually the first, the first bullet point is that the game is turn based while we see your dude running around in real time.

And the trailer is 7 minutes long. Im not gonna watch that.

Dont understand me wrong, the game does look very nice. Music is nice too.
But the trailer is horrid imho. Horrid.

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But im not interested to do background research. Im assuming the OP is looking for feedback on his presentation rather than just creating traffic for his greenlight campaign.
Pretend im a greenlight customer. Im not researching raw gameplay footage after a 7 minute trailer. It doesnt work like that.

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You’re right.

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@AndreasU , I think you’re right.

I really need to address the presentation.

You didn’t even mention that the absolute first moment of the combat looks buggy and backward and that I have some broken text.

I need to address the video images and overall presentation.

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If I’m not mistaken the 7 minute video is not the trailer, it’s the gameplay footage (confusing though that it’s on slot #1 on the steam greenlight page).

This one is the actual trailer it seems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftxW9eG81bE

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@Martin_H ,
Thanks for the link. A very talented guy helped me produce that trailer.

My worry is that my writing for that video didn’t highlight the strategy enough (he even warned me that this may be the case).

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You should try switching the position of the trailer, so the seven minute is not first

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I honestly think you should have considered keeping the old Greenlight status. I believe most voters are aware that games at that state is constantly developing. I mean, they didn’t preorder or anything, so backlash should have been minimal.

That said, I think it looks quite good. You need to go all in on your presentation and marketing and get people to notice the game. Since you’re here, I assume you are building it in Unity (I skimmed the post, since I should be working) - and tweeting about it with #MadeWithUnity could give a little push, since we’re profiling Unity games each friday.

I’ve tried running a succesful Greenlight Campaign, but that was more than two years ago and I bet things have changed a lot, so it’s hard to give solid advice on this.

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ok the first thing i noticed, is that the just combat video is at the front on steam, while i think the trailer should be definitely taking it’s place.
second thing, congratulations, your game looks awesome and i can definitely see and “feel” the influence of mount and blade, I actually loved those games, so you will get an upvote from me :slight_smile:
third thing…At this moment your game seems to have no obvious goal and that makes it seem as if it is a glorified medieval combat simulator :hushed: I can see that you tried adding some humor in textform and I think your game has alot of potential…and maybe I’m just not seeing what the goal is, but I have to say, making the goal more clear as example: Overthrow kingdoms, survive as hired swordsman, make a living, make morale choices (helping the poor or only collecting bounties on dangerous criminals or helping anyone who offers enough money with dire consequences) etc.

At the moment I just don’t see why I would want to play the game, besides the feeling of mount and blade combat and the turn based very interesting system, which could be mainly technical interest, than the normal players interest.

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