I’m building an RPG framework, which I hope to be able to reuse for multiple games. Its going to be primarily a “classic” (J)RPG system. It will have random encounters, turn-based combat, characters that can only use one type of weapon each, etc.
However, looking at the Experience Point system in most games, they just feel kind of flat to me. Here are some of the typical XP systems.
Levels
Characters gain XP from winning battles. Once they obtain enough XP, their character gains a level. From here, there is usually one of two ways things progress. Either the characters automatically gain stat increases (maintaining a specific build for a specific class), or they are given Points that can be assigned to their stats at the discretion of the player. The latter offers more freedom, but I feel it strays too far from this “classic” feel, and can really take away from how the characters were meant to be portrayed in the story.
Skill Based
The other method (more common in MMOs, but also present in RPGs), is to not have classes or levels, but instead to have the characters gain affinity with an individual skill as they use it. For instance, as you use your sword, you become more proficient with a sword.
Unfortunately, the reason this isn’t as common in standalone RPGs is that there isn’t really much else to do but talk and use your sword. So really, it runs into the same predictability and irrelevance as the first system.
So! Here are some ideas I’ve had on alternatives. Please be aware that these are the result of brainstorming, and the concepts may be tragically flawed.
First, characters do not increase their stats. Really, its a bit unrealistic to watch your characters gain intelligence over time. Even increasing strength from 1 to 99 over the course of an adventure is a bit silly. (I know, a lot of this whole concept isn’t realistic, I’m just choosing to draw an arbitrary line in the sand here.
Characters will gain XP, but will be asked to assign it to different categories.
Skills - The character is simply better at what they do. This will improve the characters general ability with their skills (attack damage, damage resistence, etc.)
Enemy - They have become more efficient battling this type of creature. This will give that character a bonus when battling that specific type of enemy (types can be as vague or specific as I’d like)
Territory - The character is becoming more familiar with the land and creatures of this location. This will give the character a subtle bonus to all combat in that specific area, as well as provide things like movement bonuses, greater chance at finding hidden items, avoiding random encounters, etc.
Any thoughts on this system? Have any ideas of your own that you’d like to share?
Have you considered making an RPG where the character progression was all story-based? You pick your skills and abilities at the beginning and use them all the way through. Perhaps you’ll learn new moves or get new weapons, but your strength and 2-handed-hammer skill remains the same.
In Bloom I’m doing largely story based and encounter / challenge based progression.
Story based is more at key points in the main game you get new abilities relating to the story (giving the new skill context).
Encounter / challenge based is designed around creating self contained mini stories or challenges that give additional ability options. Since they are self contained, they are able to be shuffled around with a little bit of randomization to keep the game a little more fresh for replayability.
All of these challenges are also not restricted by linear progression, so in theory you could get pretty powerful before continuing the story.
Think of the original legend of zelda, you could get the armor… the 2nd sword…some 2ndary powers… a bunch of heart counters… all before completing even one dungeon. If the abilities are designed not as power scaling, but simply functionality differences, this keeps you from having issues where characters “outlevel” content.
Basically, each new ability adds depth to the game play, instead of just making you hit harder. Throw in a little story context and let people discover them with a little randomization shake, and suddenly things seem kind of dynamic / interesting / compelling to play (since curiosity and discovery are one of the more powerful drivers).
The Might and Magic games (as well as a few others of the era) used a Trainer system that was pretty interesting. I can’t remember the exact details, but in essence advancing a skill was a mixture of being trained in it and practising it by using it on your adventures. You couldn’t use a skill until you’d trained in it, and you couldn’t train in more advanced versions of a skill until you’d practised a certain amount of what you’d already trained in.
As with some of the ideas you’ve already explored, I don’t think that this was limited to typical skill-tree stuff. For instance, I think you could do things like get training to increase your effectiveness against a certain type of enemy or in a certain type of environment, as well as with particular weapons/armour/magics and so forth.
A part of what I like about it is that it takes a lot of the linearity out of typical RPG progression systems. In the typical D&D system a level 20 guy will almost universally smack the crud out of a level 10 guy. But with the above system, someone could feasibly defeat a much higher level character with a much lower level one if the skill difference was appropriate.
Khanstruct, there’s a few level-less systems out there even in the JRPG world that you could draw inspiration from:
Use-based Growth (Final Fantasy II) - As player ‘uses’ a stat, it grows. For instance, when players take damage in battle, there is a chance their HP can rise; when a player uses magic, the magic gains usage points, and allows a chance the stat it is tied to to rise. This can lead to some interesting choices for the player, but also to some silly behaviors (like, having player characters attack each other in battle to prompt HP gains.) If you can overcome the gamable choice problem, this could be an interesting system.
Quasi-Materia System: I loved Final Fantasy VII back in high school. I didn’t care about the story, the size of Sephiroth’s sword, or just how much of Tifa’s…legs, were shown (ok, that didn’t hurt.) I loved the Materia system, as it provided plug-n-play abilities and stat ramifications. Since these ‘Materia’ are more or less equipment, it’ll take little code to implement them in an RPG project, making it the most easily viable non-XP progression solution. This has its own logical downsides, but with some lampshading, you can have the player be able to work with this system in your campaign.
Disclaimer: Final Fantasy VII was a XP-based RPG, and Materia themselves had AP which could cause them to level up, increasing stat ramifications and allowing access to more powerful abilities. Feel free to flex your creative muscles at this.
Score-Based Multipath System: This is a fancy set of words for ‘Final Fantasy XIII’s Crystarium.’ Pretty much, as you win battles, you get some points, which the players can invest in a number of different paths, which have their own skill draw, advantages, and drawbacks. While the Crystarium in the example exists in line with the Paradigm System (pretty much, a simplified hot-swappable job system, also ‘unique’ to Final Fantasy XIII), a more monolithic character would be provided with some interesting long-term strategies to consider.
Ff7 materia system was awesome… I thought ff8 had the same system, was so long ago i cant remember… Could work well in an adventure game but don’t people expect like 300 hours in RPGs today? You’d need a skill map a kilometre long.
I like this idea. The largest selling point to these games is going to be a branching storyline. I’m putting most of my effort into designing the system so that when players make choices at certain points (the end of an “episode”) it will largely determine what the setup for the next chapter of the game will be. I already have the system built so that, at the beginning of each episode, it generates all of the playable characters that you could possibly encounter.
So, I could easily have new characters change and grow based on the direction of the story. However, it will have to work a little differently for the characters already in your party. That’s where the big challenge will come in, but having their growth directly linked to the path of the story will give me a lot to think about.
This is obviously a big issue I’ve also had to consider. I’ve seen too many people “grind” in RPGs, maxing out their character stats early in the game, basically rendering the rest of the game pointless and laughable
However, linked with the character’s changing with the various chapters/episodes, it could be very cool to have key points in which those characters can flex their new skills and possibly advance even further with these challenges.
First, the FFVII materia system was a pure stroke of genius. It is easily one of the best systems I have ever seen done in an RPG. I do have a system in place which is a bit of an echo to that. Each character will have specific abilities, then, they can acquire a weapon and/or armor that offers additional abilities or bonuses to their existing ones. This isn’t as customizable or open as the materia system, but its definitely inspired by it.
I will want to look into this ability system a bit, to see how I can allow the characters to develop these specific powers as the grow.
As a side note, another great element I’m taking from FF7 is the hidden characters. By performing certain actions, or making specific choices at a specific time, you will be able to discover these hidden characters, which will lead to even more branches of the storyline.
FF8 had the system where you sucked magic from little fountains in the ground (or also from your enemies) which basically gave you “ammo” for your spells. It wasn’t their worst system, but still a step back from materia.
Also, Final Fantasy Crisis Core had this bizarre system where you would basically play slots and, if you got a certain result on the slot machine display, you would level up. New and interesting, but ultimately just a huge break in the continuity of the game.
I think the biggest thing about have hundreds of hours of gameplay is in the pacing of the game. You have to be able to release power ups (levels, new skills, whatever) regularly enough that people don’t get bored or frustrated, but not so often as their forced to max out too soon. Also, allowing a bit of exploration and sandboxing can certainly distract players for several hours on its own (which is how you end up playing Skyrim and Dragon’s Dogma for hours at a time).
These are some great thoughts. Thanks for the response. I’m still jotting down notes for a lot of different designs, so please, keep the ideas coming.
