Oh no! Not another one of those “Which 3D application should I buy?!” topics. Well, I’m sorry, but I have been browsing fora and trying out demo versions for the last couple of weeks and I can’t seem to find the answer I’m looking for. So with no further ado, here’s my problem.
I’m looking for a 3D application which will compliment my Unity Pro license nicely. Specifically a program which will let me design game levels/environments. So this would include modeling/texturing/lighting environments and props mostly. I have no interest in character design/animation at the moment, because I’m just starting out and I want to focus on one subject for now. There is already so much to learn!
I have decided on a budget of around 1000 euros maximum and the application must be OSX compatible. So that rules out Maya, 3D Max, Houdini and all those others. Blender didn’t “click” with me and Sketchup seems like a nice tool in combination with others. So I finally narrowed it down to Cinema 4D and Modo.
I have been playing with both of them, but aren’t able to decide. And that’s mainly I think because of my lack of experience. I want to buy a good modeler which let’s me create my environments and props, texture it all, light it, bake those textures and import them into Unity…and does this all very smoothly for years to come. Because I’m sure there are some people here with more experience I was hoping that you maybe could shed some light on this matter.
Currently I have a list of pro’s and con’s.
Cinema 4D
Somehow the GUI makes to application feel easy to learn. Navigating around and creating some meshes was a breeze (and fun), but I don’t know if it stays that way if I get to the more advanced stuff.
3D Spacenavigator support. I think I can live without it, but it’s sure nice to have.
I guess Bodypaint 3D is nice. I’ve read that it is more powerfull then Modo’s paint. But I have no idea if this is also true if I want to use it for texturing a hallway and some boxes. I do own Photoshop CS3 already.
I’m not exactly sure it this it true, but I think I also have to buy the Advanced Renderer Module to get nice GI->lightmaps. Maybe I’m wrong but the renderer in core is supposed to be very limited.
Prices for upgrades are higher than Modo’s. Especially if you have modules or bundles.
Modo
One price, everything in one app (so no modules). The application feels solid and the GUI is nice too. You can feel it’s one of the “newer” applications.
From what I’ve read the renderer in 401 is better than the one in C4D core, but again I don’t know if this has much to do with the lightmaps I will be baking.
Modo’s modeling tools are supposed to be “better” and “more flexible” then C4D’s. I don’t know if that is true or not, but people tend to complain about C4D’s “old” modeling tools and Modo’s “awesome” tools. But I don’t know if I need “awesome” tools for what I want to do.
While C4D was easy for me to jump right in, I have a lot more trouble with Modo. It doesn’t seem to do what I want in the hours I’ve toyed with it. On the other hand Modo comes with tons of video tutorials, so maybe it’s just a matter of getting into the right mindset?
I’ve heard Modo is less stable than C4D. Modo crashed twice during my trial and C4D didn’t…so…I guess that’s true then?
One sidenote…making use of some old Carrara Pro license and the current 50% discount sidegrade offer I will be able to get C4D XL at my current budget(more or less). If having the Advanced Renderer or some of the other modules is a must.
Cinema is easy and stays easy and is (subjective) the professional 3D Software with the lowest learning curve. It is indeed easier to get into than most other 3D packs.
Bodypaint is right now probably the most advanced 3D paint software. I don’t find it as intuitive as the rest of the program, though. It works well with Photoshop in the current version but you’ll find that especially adjustment-layers don’t show up in Bodypaint. In the recent version they are not destroyed any more, though
Never used Space navigator so I wouldn’t care for that.
Yes - GI and AO need the Advanced Render module - also Cinema still does not export 2 UV Sets natively, yet.
The character module also still remains with some quirks - you need to bake IK etc. - keep it in mind in case you DO want to go to character modeling at some time and find modo doesn’t support what you want, yet. A thing to keep in mind for later.
Prices are higher - that’s because Modo’s Prices are astoundingly low for it’s features, though.
Still Cinema’s prices remain reasonable. Maya’s overpriced, IMO. So are all the Adobe products in my book but … ah well …
Modo is newer right now. Time will change it like it does with all applications sooner or later. So I wouldn’t count that as a point.
I learned Cinema at university and still use it but yes: I don’t model anything organic inside C4D alone. I use blender for that because, frankly, I find Blender’s modeler awesome.
Modo’s modeler … haven’t used it extensively yet but it seems somewhat similar on a few levels. I guess the modeler is bettr but I can’t really tell. Cinema’s modeler is slow and suits static geometry better than organic. That’s all I have to say from my POV.
Every application is a matter of getting into the right mindset. Example: I never found what people like about Maya. I tried several times but found the interface very confusing. I will only learn Maya if some future employer will require it.
Cinema 4D is pretty stable. It does crash on certain weird ocasions but never crashed me on standard modeling, texturing or rendering tasks.
Well you summed it all up very comprehensive, I think.
It’s not a matter of what you’ll hear from anyone posting here but what you think you’ll like more.
You’ll learn software as you go.
The only thing I’d keep in mind that would let me tend towards Cinema if I was you is: Cinema is complete (or expandable to complete).
Modo still lacks. It’s catching up but right now still understands itself as a niche product.
Cinema can be expanded if you desire to have more features and you won’t have to learn a new software.
Cinema doesn’t play along so easy with unity as modo does. It’s not a big deal, though.
It really is your decission and you can’t expect anyone else to decide for you. Neiter is the better software per se. They both have quirks and advatages over the other.
I’d go for Cinema Sidegrade right now. But I already work with it for years.
on the other hand I plan on buying Modo, as well…
sooooo…
Thank you for your quick and informative reply motionblur. I have some more pro’s on my Cinema 4D list now.
The reason for me posting here isn’t for anyone to decide for me though. The main reason is that I don’t know what to expect from an application along the way. I guess that someone who has been using C4D or Modo for years in combination with game development can easily point out what it’s strengths and weaknesses are in that area. The “interwebs” hasn’t been all that usefull because most reviews are based on animation or still renders. If people start talking about creating models for games they also start talking about “the big boys” like 3D max and Maya.
But ok, your reply has been very helpfull. I now know about some of C4D’s quirks and strengths. I know I need to also buy the Advanced Renderer module and that you have been using C4D in combination with games for years now. It’s also nice to know that it’s ease of use stays about the same. And because I will be modeling static geometry for starters C4D will also sufficient.
I shuld add that the ease of use sometimes does stand C4D in it’s own way. I arrived at some points where I found that Maxon actually tried to simplyfiy a little too much for it’s own good. While you are able to access the deeper levels other 3D software has on most occasions it sometimes can be a little more confusing trying to search for something.
That affects only higher or more complex setups, though.
For the 2UV/Lightmap setup: There’s a toic on that on this forum where you can download a plugin from Unity Studios.That makes it kinda work. IT’s a little more work than with native support from Modo for example but it does work.
Material nodes are still missing from the material editor, though. That’s someting I’ve really been waiting for for a long time.
These… and the somewhat slow organic modeling are the only downsides I can think of right away when it comes to C4D workflow.
The positive sides - see for yourself. It’s fun to use and very intuitive once you get to know the ide behind the interface. A lot of the workflow is Drag&Drop which is especially nice for a beginner and the coplete opposite of Blender for example.
I agree with motionblur, C4D is so easy to get started with compared with other 3D apps. Also if there is something it can’t do natively, there is usually a plugin available to achieve it.
Support for multiple UV’s with FBX export by Maxon will make it perfect. There are workarounds for this currently though.
BodyPaint I avoided for ages, but once I dived in I could no longer work without it.
I keep a running handy links page on my hobby site ArtzFX - Links with a list of useful Cinema 4D resources, plugins, training, tutes etc you may find helpful.
Unity and c4d are very similar in terms of ease of use and interface. The easiness remains the same for all parts of the program (up until you need xpresso of course ).
Like Motion blur, I’ve never used space navigator.
BP is one of the trump cards of c4d. It’s incredible for game texturing. My game in the link makes extensive use of BP if you want to see a little bit of what it’s capable of.
C4D doesn’t actually have support for lightmaps specifically, but you can bake the surface color of an object with lights on it and put the generated texture (along with the original) into a lightmapped/diffuse material shader in Unity.
Thank you all for the replies. It looks like C4D has some strong followers on this forum…and because I also use Unity I think that’s a very good sign.
This nice list has already been helpfull for me since I already leeched it from the A fully dedicated video-game 3D software? thread. Keep up the good (links page) work artzfx!
Those are some nice screenshots you’ve got there! I guess BP is more then just “that painting application which comes with C4D”.
I’ve bought and watched The Game Creators Essentials by Thomas Pasieka and I wondered why he was copy/pasting textures if he wanted a lightmap. This explains it. But well, as long as the end result is the same I guess those extra steps don’t matter that much. If the program is easier to work with it also saves time in that department.
And yeah, if money wasn’t a problem I guess this also wouldn’t be a problem. 8) Maybe I should become a successful bankrobber first before creating games. Or make a very successful game about robbing banks I guess. Don’t know which one is easier though.
Cinema4d is quite good for you standard level modelling, flexible and easy to learn. One problem remaining is the multiple UV sets.
The problematic Baking and Exporting in Cinema4D make it near impossible to use for character animation, however. You’ll often find things like a frame being baked improperly, some bones just flipping out, and certain types of Ik not working at all, even after baking.
If didn’t already own 3DSmax2010 and Maya2009(student) and I needed a software solution then my first choice would be modo. I don’t think the animation is quite there yet, but these guys are very motivated on improving it’s capabilities and it is quickly moving up through the ranks.
Thank you for the feedback on Modo maxfax2009 and wadoman. I will have to decide this week and I will be toying with both programs until then.
It seems to me that C4D is the older and more mature program. It has been around since 1993 and has had it’s time to become a stable and reliable program. Its toolset is becoming to show age especially in de modeling and dynamics department, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad. It just means that in 2009 there are alternatives which provide more advanced/easier tools. Because of this I doubt that version 11.5 will provide many new earth shattering enhancements, but the performance will still be rock solid.
Modo is the new and cool kid on the block. It was released in 2004 and this is clearly noticable in the fresh UI and the amount of shiny and fresh features. Because of its age Modo hasn’t had time to develop itself in a full featured 3D package with all the bells and whistles one would expect…yet. It is also quite crash happy in comparison to C4D. You know that version 402 and 501 will bring all new shinies to the table and that Modo will only become a stronger player in the next couple of years.
So with no further ado, here’s my problem.
