Crafting Bench

I have been mulling over an advanced crafting bench that takes feed materials from say mining or found objects such as minerals and combining them with energetics which creates an array of discoverable, invented and manufacturable items depending on configuration. The base class setup is as follows…

public class MaterialComposite : MonoBehaviour {
    public enum materialBase{
        Leather = 0,
        Wood = 1,
        Zinc = 2,
        Lead = 3,
        Brass = 4,
        Bronze = 5,
        Silver = 6,
        Gold = 7,
        Platinum = 8,
        Iron = 9,
        Steel = 10,
        Copper = 11,
        Titanium = 12
    }//in order of relative durability
    public materialBase _materialBase;
    public enum energeticComposite{
        Hydrogen = 0,//thought unit water medium
        Oxygen = 1,//fire medium
        Nitrogen = 2,//air medium
        Carbon = 3,//structure
        Inert = 4,//enveloping
        Salt = 5,//crystalizing
        Orme = 6,//energizing
        Solvent = 7,//dissolving
        Precipitate = 8,//solidifying
        Frequency = 9,//repeating
        Sonic = 10,//glowing
        Magnetic = 11,//attracting and repulsing
        Magrav = 12//creating and positioning
    }//in order of relative energies
    public energeticComposite _energeticComposite;
    public enum gemstoneComposite{
        Quartz = 0,
        Amythest = 1,
        Beryl = 2,
        Agate = 3,
        Amber = 4,
        Jade = 5,
        Opal = 6,
        Obsidian = 7,
        Garnet = 8,
        Ruby = 9,
        Sapphire = 10,
        Emerald = 11,
        Diamond = 12
    }//in order of relative value
    public gemstoneComposite _gemstoneComposite;  
}

The idea would be that each has inputs and outputs and using some sense of scientific discipline set up final outputs based on the composite order of connection mud like designing electronic circuits or chemical compounds. Only certain enums from each could be linked via their output to others inputs. I was thinking of using a plug and socket type system where the output plug may have one through six prongs that will link to various inputs that share a config. Of course equal sized outputs will plug into equal sized inputs. A three pronged output could link to a six pronged input for example leaving three sockets open. Manufacturable items are derived from an output-input recipe. Discoverables are made when certain linkages are made for example iron and magnetic would make a magnet. I would designate this a discoverableCompoundComposite. If designed right inventions could be discovered that would be entirely unique.

Comments, extensions, what ifs welcomed.

The idea system is good, and proven in various games (this is actually sort of how the Alchemy Pot in Dragon Quest VIII works), but you’ve got too many possibilities (13 * 13 * 13 = 2197 possibilities in the “example” you’ve linked us, without knowing if any are dead ends or not.)

I think to help you begin to “prove” your idea, start with 3 of each; if it were me, I’d say Leather, Wood, and Iron as the input materials, Solvent, Hydrogen, and Oxygen as your “energetic” bit (I don’t know exactly what you’re going for with that, it’s counterintuitive as a casual observer, but OK…whatever floats your boat. Just be warned this is a bit of complexity that may not help the player understand what they’re trying to do in its current form…), and Quartz, Beryl, and Diamond as gems. To help us understand your design idea, another good question - given that reduced material set, what are the proposed outputs?

(Side-note: Amethyst is merely Quartz with varying amounts of Iron and Titanium being present in the crystal; you don’t actually need to split Quartz into two different gemstones. If you decide to add Topaz at any point, Topaz is also a form of Quartz. Similarly, Emeralds and Sapphires are both crystalline forms of the mineral Corundum, so it may not be necessary to duplicate those. Obsidian is volcanic glass; it’s not crystalline at all, and therefore not a great candidate for being a gemstone, if you’re going for gemological accuracy. Similarly, it might be interesting to replicate some real-world location-specific gemstones in your game world; Tanzanite is a great example of such a gem due to its unique properties, as is Tourmaline.)

So are the energetics meant to be verbs (for the processes)? It sounds like you’re leaning more toward using them as additive properties though, so I’m not too sure how easy it is to follow.

@advarduil I never do things simply. I can already wrap my mind ethereally around several hundred combinations so starting with 3 to my headspace is sheer boredom. And.Quartz doped with metals make for various subharmonic oscillations. In modern materials sciences it is always the doping of a main base with a little this and that that gives it unique characteristics whether electronically, magnetically, superconductivity, or photonically…in the latter case shown by the doping of quartz with metals to produce various colors which in crystal lore an healing have different characteristics. For example a quartz oscillator drive a watch but the same slice of amethyst will not. That is why they are under gemstone composites/minerals. The sockets method ensures that only those going together via matching prong and socket configs would do so. I can think of at least 20 recipes for discoverable energetic objects that would be scientifically and/or metaphysically sound. I do not like arbitrary.

@RockoDyne …they are similar to verbs and can be thought of as processes. I was seeking to create a craftbench system that uses science and metaphysics to discover, invent and manufacture. I think I should add a fourth category for geometric composites so you can use tubes, wires, spheres, coils, toroids etc…and end up with Tesla type devices, radios, capacitative discharge wands.

I blew the basement up at age nine, made my first polymer plastics and a microphone from tin strips and graphite lead, a battery and cheap speaker at 7, kept my desk drawer locked with a kotex tube, nail, copper wire, ballpoint pen spring and two contact screws at 8. i am 57 now…I gather university science books tossed to the curb…cheaper than the bookstore. Daily I read phys.org, the MIT mag, stardrive.org, pesn.org and anything I can find that is new in the fields. I wanted to be a chemical engineer (and/or traditional animator) like BoredMormon but my family sucked and I lived with a bike gang at 15. I have been studying and messing with this stuff for 5+ decades and had a few mad scientist labs in my days… And of course i waited to post this to get in a discussion during down time and got a 3K contract starting immediately a few hours later so I am not sure how much time I can put into this thread as the gig is for a toolset using Unity and Syphon for a huge music festival video screen and on a tight deadline. I will try to add more and answer questions. I was seeking further insights and not admonishment to make it simple. I don’t buy into that line…never have. And I don’t play games so I have no benchmark there. I read about them here or watch my son play them for a few hours at a time… I suck as a keyboard warrior to boot. I have always been too busy with career, performance, art or making games. I gotta beat everything so in my case I chose the game engine to beat.

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Simple is not always best. This seems like a great system to me and would allow a great deal of emergent gameplay. If the system could be adapted to anything it would be really useful. It would mean that it would need a kind of technical map that would explain how the relationships of all the inputs worked, not for a player but for a developer so that a custom input system could be used to fit in with the game world. By this I mean in the real world combining a number of metal ores and putting them through different processes gives different results so it would need the ability to be able to do that as well e.g. heating iron ore at a certain temperature gives iron swords, crucible steel is a different process that gives better steel.

Then wrapping the entire system it would be good to have an overall switch that could change the nature of the entire system kind of like the way left handed and right handed isomers work could be an intriguing idea.
This kind of system one can extrapolate different uses for ad infinitum, so long as the guiding principals were clearly laid out.

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Apparently my reputation proceeds me. :sunglasses:

Anyway, back on topic, you’ll need to do some serious rework to the code to get this structure to work. Enums are probably not the way to build what you describe. I’d suggest a component for each element. Or perhaps even several. But enough I implementation, that’s for another forum.

From a design perspective, there are several ways to approach this. You could consider he process to be combining of ingredients. Much like making a potion. Each ingredient (or ingredient pair as in skyrim) ads some property to the mix. This is fairly straight forward to implement.

Another way could be building an invention. In this case each piece needs to have defined properties, and you will need to simulate what happens when they are joined together just so. This allows your players to create totally unique items. “My sword has a durability of 10,000 because I layered titanium strips over steel in a triangular fashion.” “I built a crossbow, now I can punch through plate armour from 100m, developers never thought that would be possible in this crafting system”.

Another approach would be to consider is as a process of moving energy. Have energy collectors, conduits, transformers and emitters. The final aura emitted can be very different base on how the components are connected. Like a chemical factory or an electrical circuit.

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@sicga123_1 This was what I was thinking (emergent sandbox gameplay). I designed it originally for a huge MMORPG that had a five planet economic simulation (cancelled KS project). Inventors who discovered unique configurations could “patent” these and sell the recipe to manufacturers. Discoverables were things like iron and magnetism created a magnet. Oscillate the magnetism and a speaker or sonic weapon would be possible which would be an invention made from discoverables…those being basic scientific principles. String discoverables together to transform outputs via the next input. Sure some would not work…same as a real lab. Inside each composite component wold be a series of mathematical operations… add, subtract, multiply, divide, exponentials, square roots etc attached to keyword variables. Matching categories of keyword vars would calculate and output var and if no match came up then it would be a null calculation.

@Kiwasi …what you describe is very similar to the thoughts I had about it. The lists above are keywords that comprise components which held mathematical operations linked to visual icon animations for visual feedback…not that much different than how real science is practiced…and allow things/objects/energetic systems to be composed in unique configurations that developers may not have been aware were capable of being produced. Each output prong could be configured to be a conduit, transmitter, collector, transformer and etcetera which inputs would or could not be plugged into various input sockets depending on the characteristics of the input socket being capable of matching an output type. Kind of like an electronic breadboard environment or a chemical research laboratory.

Probably not a bad idea to have some notion of what form the item would take. The catch with all crafting systems is in trying to establish patterns and consistency in the logic. The more products you can group into families that are only one or two variables different, the more inference you build into the system.

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I think the biggest problem the OP is facing is in the number of moving parts; the OP is trying to replicate real-world physical and chemical processes with a high degree of “fidelity” (see my previous post for why said fidelity isn’t exactly real.) I don’t think this setup is going to work out for a game, that is intended to be played for recreation.

I’d like to also submit that the quality of advice that can be given by us is limited; to give good advice, we need to know the outcomes of certain combinations. So far, the OP has not provided these.

If Leather + Iron + Sapphire = Idol of the Steel Monkey, but Leather + Silver + Sapphire = Ceruleum Phaser Mk.3, I’d say the crafting table has innate problems already (which is what @RockoDyne said.)

@AndrewGrayGames I certainly am not thinking of Idol of The Steel Monkey. And how the heck does one fashion a phaser from leather silver and sapphire?? Absolutely unintuitive. I am dealing with actual physical and metaphysical energetic systems in my thought processes and as spoken to before… arbitrary is BS… It comes from the mind of the dev and cannot be intuited based on real world knowledge. As for recreational use… It would depend on the level of intellectual acuity whether one would find an in depth science and metaphysics based crafting bench amusing. i certainly would and hence why I gave some serious thought to it

@RockoDyne … As I find room to elucidate I shall… currently it is using valuable time to reply shortly back to this thread as I have a hard deadline for a huge concert to meet. Had I known that this contract would arrive when it did I would not have started this thread as i knew I would not have time to elaborate.

That being said, a glance though materials science texts and electronics provides dozens of combos from what categories I have made…as well as some cogent math formulae My issue was creating a coherent system of inputs and outputs to join them into systems. i am getting there with those ideas as well.

Definitely not a positive example, although I could also imagine cases where any two products of a pattern may not be enough to explain it, but a third should give it away.
One’s a fluke, and two’s a coincidence, but three’s a trend.

At this point my biggest hangup is that I can’t see it (literally more than just metaphorically). You seem to be well enough off the beaten path as far as crafting systems go that I can’t really tell where it’s going.

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Yup. Its definitely prototype time. Even if the prototype is built of cardboard.

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I think I understand the crafting system, I am thinking of an example for a Viking sword, which are now believed to have been made from Damascus Steel brought north by traders and which were made from crucible steel, a technology the Vikings did not have. Crucible steel as far as I can remember was created in the Indian subcontinent well over a thousand years ago. To make good quality steel requires incredible heat, it also requires other elements. So using this system if I know how to make crucible steel then I can take the inputs and get steel of the quality of an Uelfberth blade out of it. This could even be stumbled upon much like it was back in the day. Take iron ore, add heat - not such a good sword - bends in battle (swords bend in battle because they are often used to force enemies away at blade tip during a melee, iron swords bend, steel ones will bounce back into shape). So using this system one could make meaningful changes in a game and allows for experimentation in a realistic way.

Thinking about the metaphysics aspects I realise now that you could mean using hermetic symbols to signify certain alchemical processes to apply to the ingredients.

My problem with any/every crafting system is no matter how big it is, players will discover it all at a rapid pace. If you have even a moderately successful product they’ll churn through a million possibilities in no time. In order to make a really interesting crafting system it has to be about using those items in creative ways, which means more focus on uses and less on quantity. That’s my instinct anyway, maybe I missed how many millions of possibilities your system can realistically make use of :slight_smile:

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I have a contract to complete first. Then two of my own games to complete and then you all get a prototype:) I have that worked out in my head and some code done already. No graphics as of yet. Ya’all hounding me is a good thing though some skepticism above is simply skepticism for it’s own sake with no use of intellect to drive thought processes. Typical around these here parts. Not impressed.

You get it. The crucible steel is an example of a discoverable recipe and the sword itself is an invention that can be manufactured from the recipe if one has the materials.

Using the above OP enums as a start point it may work similar to this…

You drag the Iron material from a Materials palette to the workbench. A series of scale bars appears in a properties field for material. Ductility - Durability - Elasticity - Conductivity. An Initial Forms palette provides options such as Sphere - Rod - Billet - Conduit - Pipe - Coil. In this case you would choose Billet and input height, width and depth ratios. Based on the original volume the Billet conforms to the ratios whilst keeping the volume constant so you would choose H = 1.0 W = 0.1 and D = 0.05 to get a billet that is long, somewhat narrow and thin.

From the Energetic palette you drag Carbon for structure and Oxygen for fire. If just fire then if the Material can be oxidized or rust it will…but adding the Carbon it retains its structure and hence the Durability and Elasticity scalebar is increased in value. It will have great Ductility at this point as it is under the influence of fire. To complete the process of energetics you Would add Precipitate to the node chain to solidify it. No gemstone composite needed for the sword blade though in the pommel they may have a use to further modify the objects inherent properties. At this point you have a modified MaterialsComposite which can then be used to manufacture the sword blade. The Manufacturing bench would have a selection of mesh types where you could choose a blade mesh with various deformation properties such as Profile - H/W/D - X/Y/Z. Create the Profile from a base list of object types and drag the created MaterialsComposite onto it which the calculates the internal mesh volume and extracts that much of the material from your inventory. Sell it to other players or use it in battle.

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That is an incredible system, the things that could be done with that boggles the mind. I can’t think of a single crafting system as deep as that or with as many possibilites. I look forward to seeing the progress with it.

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