Hi guys, so, I’m creating a mobile game at the moment. As recommended and as seen through the successes of mobile games, its very simple in terms of gameplay. I’ll go into what is is later on, when I’m nearer to release, but when I talk about it to friends, there always seems to bit of umming, when I talk about the gameplay. The gameplay in this game isnt reliant on skill at all. You could be a high ‘level’/scoring character, and lose against a brand new player, in fact you most likely will. However, it is also not based on luck. Its based on risks instead. Now, part of me thinks this is great, but part of me thinks it wont resonate with players when they know that no matter how long they play for, they wont necessarily get any better at the game, and they can never win everytime, no matter how good they are.
Whats your thoughts on this, do games need some degree of skill, or are risk based games a possibility for success. Let me know, soon I’ll begin player testing on a very early version of the game so let me know below if you are interested (and if so, what device you have).
What is the purpose of the levels? Based on what I’m hearing, the levels are unlocking other content - new units, abilities, or graphical flare. If the levels are adding skill/power, and it means you still lose frequently vs low level characters, then yes, you have to walk a fine line. Games like Call of Duty, Team Fortress 2, and Destiny, walk this reasonably well. The levels might have unlocked a weapon, or given them lateral abilities, though it doesn’t necessarily guarantee a win. As with most things in game design, it depends.
I do have one caution. If your friends are giving you that ‘ummm’‘’ face’, then it’s also possible that your game is not fun. If you haven’t yet, you may consider the “Shut Up and Watch” technique - ask someone if they’ll help test your game. Then, give them the game, and SHUT YOUR MOUTH, so you can watch. Any where players struggle (or ask questions!) is an area that needs improving.
Gigi
I did wonder if levels would be a bad word to use, because its not really levels at all. Its just score, so its an indicator of how well the player is doing. There are also coin wins/losses through doing this, but it buys you cosmetics. Really, the game is purely based on the risk, its not a ‘you have a higher chance of winning if you are a better player’, but in fact that everyone has the same chance of winning, in a way.
This will certainly be the case. My friends havent played it yet, and when they do and if they still dislike it, I’ll either rethink the core mechanics or save what assets I can and make a new game.
May I offer some advice? I suspect that your friends will NOT like the game. Because, a game is not just one great idea, it’s an evolution of ideas that leads to a compelling experience. So, if you have ANYTHING playable, I recommend doing it this way:
- “Would you mind playtesting my game?”
- Hand them the device.
- Watch them play. Don’t say ANYTHING. Just watch.
- When done (~10 mins), take back the device.
- Don’t ask them whether they liked it. Tell them you just needed to watch them play. Say thanks.
- Go to another topic.
Playtesting for friends is stressful. They don’t want to hurt your feelings. And, you don’t want to disappoint them. Playtesting this way gives you maximal return, with minimal damage to your relationship.
Oh - do this EARLY and OFTEN. Like TODAY.
Gigi
Actually, this is really fantastic advice!
I do wonder myself how fun my game will be, and I dont suspect this will be the idea I end up with, which is a shame because of how many hours I’ve put into it. But, its a learning experience, and maybe Ill even do something new with it. But yeh, this method of testing sounds great to me.
Beware the sunk cost fallacy. I talk a bit about that in ep3 of the Game Design Zen podcast.
Gigi
What exactly do you mean by risk? It works in something like poker where you can go for a straight or flush, but if you don’t get it, you’ve got an empty hand. It’s not like there isn’t some skill in poker though, just that most of it is knowing when to cut your losses.
Tbh, sounds like a multiplayer poker machine. No matter what the player does he’s just pressing a button & waiting to see whether he wins or loses. Why will a player invest time & money if a person has as much chance of winning in their first game as a player that has spent time & money?
& I agree with @Gigiwoo , if your family & friends are giving you the hmmm look then either they aren’t in your target market & want to say something bad but don’t know how, or it’s just the latter. By default they will want to say something encouraging (it looks/sounds good but I wouldn’t play it as I don’t play those types of games) & if they can’t then find people in the target market & get their viewpoint. If you can’t do that then maybe take the hint & rework the idea.
It’s very possible to make a game entirely luck based that doesn’t actually feel that way to the end user (fools them into believing in all kinds of things).
For instance I will give two examples. Poker is first. Most pro level poker players will tell you they play by the numbers. It’s just a matter of knowing the odds, as opposed to knowing some kind of secret tell or bluffing etc. It isn’t a game, it’s just mechanics and a job.
In the realm of poker we have a great example of where most people see a game but the best players see a simple (relatively) set of statistical probabilities.
Second is a game called Chaos Reborn. It’s by the guy who made X-com and everything in the game is a series of known odds. 5% chance your goblin will kill my dragon in one hit. The worst players, and the ones who like it least (probably the majority) see it as a game of total random chance. The best players see the big picture and take a series of risks and counter risks. The result is the best players can win 70-80% of their games (but never 100%).
Now you could argue that Poker requires great skill or you could easily argue that poker requires no skill at all. It depends on how you look at it. Similarly you could say Chaos is a game of random chance (in the micro moment to moment gameplay it is) or you could say as long as you eye the big picture it’s a game of making smart bets.
I would use both of these as inspiration for any game like the one you’re describing. What you want to avoid is giving the player NO AGENCY - which means making it so they feel like they have no control over the outcome nor decisions to make.
Risk management is definitely a skill, it’s also a very difficult one to master.
People have a very strange, very unnatural relationship with chance, learning to understand it and mastering your emotions when faced with chance is something that not many people can do, and less can do well.
Though that’s assuming that the risks are known to the player & they can make decisions based on that knowledge.
Again if the risks are unknown then you dont have a game unless you can fool players into believing they can impact the outcome somehow.
Long story short, I talked with Gigi about it and came up with some mechanics which can make it a bit more playable, but is still fundamentally about risk management.
I watched a civ development video a while back. One of the weird things they found is people expected to win at a 66% chance more then 90% of the time. And people couldn’t stand losing a 50% battle twice in a row. And so forth.
Apparently the game builds in all sorts of psychological tricks to make the randomness appear fair to the player, instead of being truely random.
That sounds like something to look into! Cheers
You have any idea what the video was called? I’d really really love to watch it.
I think it was this one.
I saw that talk live! Sid Meier’s is one of my heroes - he has great ideas. And he wasn’t as dynamic a speaker as I had expected.
Gigi
I can’t think of any game that doesn’t have an element of skill, even if it is pure luck based (Poker?). Once a player gets the idea that winning or losing is basically RNG that takes away a lot of the fun. Let’s not call it skill, let’s call it learning how to be better at the game, which is the best reward system.
Just my opinion, good luck!
it certainly isnt random, I guess the skill in this game is judgement