This might be just me, so take it with a grain of salt…
When I look around for artists (concept art, etc.) and I go to your site to check out your work, if you require me to let you know my budget in order to even talk to me, then you’re not getting my business and I just left your page. Give a rough estimate of your regular rates, and then maybe I’ll contact you if I think we can do something. The whole “asking someone for their budget before they’ve even told you what they want” thing is just… nope.
Find out what I want, then tell me what it will cost. Better yet, have a sample cost range, and we’ll go from there.
The coin has more than one side though. How much is someone’s work worth to you? You most likely want quality but if you pay peanuts… I take it you get my point. Besides, you need the artist just as the artist needs you. If you like to be mysterious about what you’re willing to pay for a service, be my guest. But why should an artist take you serious if you like to bargain? Think again I’d say. We all switch hats sometimes, now you’re a complaining consumer, tomorrow you’re the complaining entrepeneur.
Plus add the fact that you ought to be a professional and we’re not talking about dollar store throw away items. You want something specific to be done by an artist, yet you can’t be specific on your budget. I’m sure most people are willing to negotiate because of course they want your business. But if you are the one demanding them to put all their cards on the table then you’re wrong. Nobody likes to be pushed in a corner. So if you are smarter than this you name a budget (with some margin) and proceed from there. If it’s too low they’ll tell you and if it’s not, all good. You still look like a cheapskate though if your offer is too low but what you offer is up to you. At least you’re able to pull out some information about their rates without demanding it which makes people feel uncomfortable and makes you look like a jerk.
From my perspective as a freelance developer, if someone wants to hire me I talk to them about what they want, figure out how much that will cost, and let them know. We then go from there to figure out what works for both of us. I’ve never once asked someone their budget ahead of time. To me that’s basically the artist saying, “I don’t know what I’m worth. How much you got?” I know what my time and skills are worth, and I price accordingly.
I just had someone from this forum contact me the other day. He told me what he wanted, I found out more, and gave him a price. When that price was outside of his range, I lowered the goal of the project, found a base-line he could think about, and left it at that. He knows how much it will cost if he wants to use me. Done.
From the perspective of a developer looking to hire someone else, I’m shopping. If I have to fill out a form at every “store” I go to, explaining my budget, etc. before I even have a basic idea of their prices, then I’m going to go elsewhere. I’m busy. I don’t have time for that. Know what you’re worth and give me a range, either right on your page or after I tell you what I’m looking for. Requiring me to divulge my budget before you’ll talk to me means you only care about one thing: How much money you’re going to get from me. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and that’s the last thing you want when you’re looking for work.
There are a million artists out there who kick ass. Don’t treat me like an ATM and I won’t treat you like an amateur.
The typical way it runs in many industries is something like this, I have no experience purchasing art, but it should be similar.
Buyer provides a specification of work to be done.
Seller examines specification. Provides a quotation, along with further details on the exact nature of the work. Often several options are presented.
Some negotiation and clarification occurs, then the work is done, (or not).
Providing rates up front might be a bit much. But asking for a price from the purchaser is very backwards. It seems a bit sleazy, I can spend up to 50k on this, wow, bizarre coincidence that’s how much it will cost. What if I’d offered to spend only 10k?
It occasionally happens where the conversation goes “I want this” “That will cost 200k” “I have 80k, what can I get for that?” But even here the seller provided the first cost estimate.
You could use that to your advantage as well. I didn’t say the artist should ask for a budget but the customer could make a suggestion. You as the one making the offer has so much control to steer the situation because the artist has to respond (usually they do). If your budget is 50k you obviously don’t say 50k right away, that’s why you need to set a margin for yourself like I mentioned in my first comment.
You can do and say everything you want, the only thing that matters is how you do it and how say it.
Yes, and this thread is specifically because some artists (including one I visited today) require me to tell my budget before I even talk to them. That’s what prompted me to start the thread.
It doesn’t matter to me if you’re an artist who doesn’t know what you’re worth. If you need to know how much you can get out of someone before you tell them your fee, then more power to you. You just won’t be getting my business.
Judging your own worth based on Market pricing is actually not that hard. Figure out how many hours you want to work. Put up a price that you think is about right.
If you get more hours then you want to work, put your price up.
If you find yourself twiddling your thumbs, drop your price.
I agree that this is a fairly typical way of purchasing things when you’re doing business-to-business. Ultimately, I think even something like game art is going to have to have its final details worked out this way. But I think the OP is right that giving out a general pricing guideline allow one to do some comparison shopping ahead of time.
For someone who is/was regularly doing game art, I have seen a general information like, “a typical humanoid game ready character of X quality takes about Y hours and costs start around $Z. This includes W concept sketches.” Something like, “I charge $X per hour,” with general ideas of how long the artist sees a typical model, drawing, or whatever in the various types they do taking is also a good way to lay things out.
Unlike another industry I worked in, there are thousands of people out there willing to produce game art. (Probably tens of thousands before you eliminate the people whose style or skill doesn’t match your needs.) This makes it more of a buyer’s market and an artist needs to make it easier for a buyer to choose them over any competition. There is also the time problem for the buyer because getting detailed quotes from the three companies that provide a particular service in your area is a huge difference from trying to get quotes from a huge lists of possible artists.
I also strong agree that asking what someone’s budget is can very definitely be used for sleazy means. When I was doing the tech end of things, I had one of our salesmen ask me to find out the client’s budget on a project so we could make sure to spend it all. I ignored the request, but just being asked made me feel cruddy.
Been there done that. Price the project to spend the entire budget plus allowable overrun.
It’s weird to sit and go, “I can get this job done for x, but I’ve been told I must spend x+y on it. Where else can I blow cash.” But it certainly happens.
In the end if you’re selling something I would think you want to make it as easy for potential buyers as possible. The only exception is if you as a contractor don’t want to work that many hours. Even then I would think you would be best served by raising your rates to limit work than by making the shopping experience difficult.
It’s just like buying a car in the US (haggling) it may save a few bucks for some and cost a few bucks more for others that just accept the sticker price but it becomes a whole dance that almost everyone hates and that dance adds a layer of overhead that accomplishes nothing and discourages shopping. There aren’t that many car manufacturers (way less than independent contractors) so minimizing the amount of work involved will give you more perspective clients and that’s a good thing.
I believe the site in question is our site. I’ve made budget field optional.
The actual reason for putting estimated budget, was I was getting many very low or free artwork requests and that was to filter out those requests.
You should think of quality vs. price per hour. Our price per hour is higher, but we do work fast, so you get smaller bill. (If things don’t work out, we give a refund.)
One way to avoid that is to state your base price, hourly price, or even a down payment deposit price. Anyone looking for free artwork will realize you don’t do that. There’s always someone looking for something for free, it’s just part of being in the creative field.
If your rates are already reasonable for the market and comfortable for what you want to make based on hours worked, you can also just keep the rates where they are and limit your hours by being choosy about your clients. This gives you both the control of hours and a higher chance of happy per hour. (Or at least lower chance of client frustration per hour, which is similar.)
It’s what I do in how I earn my living.
Still, it’s best if a potential customer has an idea of your rates going into things so they know if you’re in the ballpark that they want to budget for. In my business, it’s not uncommon to have one provider charge twice as much for the exact same quality. In video game art, the spread seems even wider. I know that is in part attributable to things like variance in cost of living between locations, people new to the industry, and folks who care more about love for the work than the money earned.
Yes if your objective is the most relaxed employers that’s certainly possible too. In any case if you didn’t want to work that many hours you would still want to make it as easy as possible for the customer (in your case to get more possible clients to choose from when determining who is the most relaxed). Whether it’s money, clients with less attitude, or any other factor, making the shopping experience good is in your best interest.
Totally agree, the initial discussion was the potential contractor requiring customer budget (open ended field) on initial request not said contractor on his site posting his current rates.
I know this isn’t going to win me any popularity contests, but here goes.
Just because I’m not a multimillion dollar studio, doesn’t mean I should have to play by different rules. I think I should say what I want, get a bid for the work from artists, look at their portfolio, and pick who works best for me and my budget.
Usually that might consist of “What do you expect it would cost for something like ___ from your portfolio?” and then go back and forth until you can arrive on what’s fair for the both of you.
Now that said, I feel that it is imparitive that you hire by quality, not cost. And I feel that it is important to offer a bonus that ties into the success of the game so that they feel connected to the final product and their effor will reflect that.
But whatever an artist does when I’m shopping around, just please don’t start bringing up dollars per hour.
I don’t care about dollars per hour.
I care about timelines, sure. But dollars per hour is pixie dust. It’s meaningless. I don’t know you and I have absolutely no way of knowing if your hours are honest. That and some artist take way to long, while others breeze through it. Both should be paid by product, not time.
I think anyone that’s been around the block a few times realizes that you can’t just go on an hourly rate. As you said you can easily fudge the numbers. However, going on product usually doesn’t speak to quality, is back-loaded from a payment perspective, and in addition everyone is different on how many revisions they need if the visions aren’t quite “aligning”. Also, if you go by product your argument from a hourly rate perspective is just shifted to a quality perspective because you can deliver a product in varying quality levels if the only thing you discuss is a product for x dollars. In an ideal world you should always start small and get to know the entire process on a small scale with each individual before proceeding to big stuff, but this is not always possible.
I would think listing your hourly rate at least helps you weed out those who are in a way different price range than you consider worth it(usually weeds out those who are looking for a dirt cheap quote that usually gets dirt cheap quality).
While one artist (or coder) might take 10 hours and another 20 hours and the hourly rates might be off by the same factor (2x) that discussion is going to take place in your conversation anyways when you set things up like timelines, rough hour estimate, etc.
I really only take the original complaint to be a stance against a contractor asking “what is your budget” to a potential customer as the first step. I think it’s very analogous to a sleazy salesman in a market asking “what would you like to pay” for an item. In general the hope of said salesman is someone is uneducated and is willing to pay more than he originally intended to sell it for. It is a much more efficient conversation to start with listing what your desired price/rate is and proceeding from there. It will save you from having to interact with some of the people you didn’t want to interact with anyways (yes some people never take a hint so not all will not contact you).
You know, while we’re here talking about artists I should plug the guy that I’ve been working with.
He goes by Djagg here on the forums, and you can see his portfolio at here: www.djagg.com
He’s been FANTASTIC to work with. Has work ready ahead of time. Does a great job communicating with me what I should do and what I would like. Worked with me for a payment plan due to funding the project from my day job. Is genuinely a great guy and very easy to get along with. And his work is spot on what I was looking for:
