How does Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis System Work?

News & General Discussion
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When I’m curious about game mechanics, I usually just watch a video or try the game.

Shadow of Mordor’s Nemesis system looks really interesting, but it’s hard to get a real feeling for it in video, and it seems like playing it long enough to really get a sense for the system might take forever.

So, have any of you played it, and if so, what did you think?

Is it any good? Is it interesting? How does it actually work in practice?

I absolutely love the idea behind it, but what’s it actually like in game?

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It’s been a while since I played it, but I take it you’re talking about the Uruk progression system thingy?

I actually thought it was pretty cool, well of course like all things it ends in monotony although at least it’s something different. Off the top of my head there are three tiers of Uruk who can become more powerful via different means.

For instance if a grunt defeats the MC they will get promoted and become more powerful, they also fight amongst themselves and a grunt / captain etc. will fight to be promoted. Ultimately it ends up in some cool runes for Talion (the MC) although there are some Uruks with specific traits that you don’t want promoted, they may be immune to certain attacks etc. that make them very difficult to deal with when promoted, this can become a major problem if said Uruk is caught up in a primary mission.

So it’s not just about collecting runes I suppose, there is also an element of challenge within the mechanic.

There’s some cool little things, all of them have their own “personality” types and they do kind of feel like a nemesis to Talion.

In theory a system like this should be somewhat straight forward, if you want to move from what it is to how to do then let me know.

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Thx for the response @ ,

Little more of both… like… whats an Uruk (generic badguy)?

What happens when someone is promoted?

Why do you care who is promoted?

Can you change who gets promoted?

What’s a rune? Do runes work with promotions?

How does all this affect game play?

Explain like I have no idea what the game is. :slight_smile:

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I think you would only have to play it for a few hours to understand the system, plus the game is really fun. I started to answer your questions, but almost immediately got stumped on how to fully explain it. I think you would understand it if you watched a let’s play of the first few hours.

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Pretty much, they are a race of goblins? But they seem to have their own personality traits which is cool…

They become more powerful (stat bonuses, resistances, new combat abilities).

Because they might become a problem, some of these promoted “Uruks” get involved in main missions. If you let them get too powerful and have too many stat bonuses / minions they can become a real issue.

Well I suppose, if they beat you then said Uruk will get promoted… Apart from that no.!

I believe it’s a powerup, but again its been a while.

It bares several fruits, for one it’s fun to see the internal struggles of the Uruk. Secondly it can add a level of difficulty, you can upset factions and you can change the balance of power within the Uruk… The one issue is, it never ends hence it can become monotonous.

You can read about it on IGN I think? You should really give the game a go, it’s like Batman meets Dragon age… It’s pretty cool.!

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You can get the game and all DLC for $4.99 on Bundle Stars.

When most people talk about the Nemesis system, I think they’re talking about the fact that enemies remember your past deeds (as well as rivals’), and it influences what they do and say in the future.

Gamasutra has a summary of their presentation at the 2015 DICE Summit as well as a postmortem of the game. But since it’s so cheap to just get the game and experience it for yourself, just playing it for an hour or two should probably be your first step.

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It’s been a while since I played it, but weren’t there also some trials where Uruks would duel and you could interfere and shoot one of them with your bow to decide the outcome of the duel and who get’s promoted? That might have been a scripted thing in the mainquest though, to get your “ally” into a position of power. I really can’t remember.

Some have even called it “a better Assassin’s Creed game than Assassin’s Creed”. +1 for just playing it, I really enjoyed it and played it to the end. Good stealth gameplay too.

@frosted : Imho the whole system lives and dies with balancing and they got it just right. Most Leaders I’d just beat first try, but occasionally I’d get slain myself and when that happend more than once by the same Orc, I’d get really mad at him and made him a priority target, or grinded out skills and runes to get an edge for the next time I’d meet my nemesis. The system adds emergent goals and strengthens engagement. It makes you care more about who you murder, makes the world feel more alive and believable, and gives the impression of your actions affecting the gameworld. Regarding goals, you could “mind-control” certain Orcs to get information from them, so if you’d been beaten by an enemy too strong for you, you could prepare for the next encounter by beating a weaker Orc, getting intel from him, and then using the newly revealed information about the weaknesses and strengths of your nemesis to defeat him. E.g. some would be afraid of certain animals, or get really mad and buffed when they see them, or be immune to ranged or stealth attacks, or have a weakness to certain types of attacks. Iirc they’d sometimes also keep distinctive scars on their face from past encounters and refer to them when they see you again.
Bottom line I think it added a lot to the game, but it’s not something that remains consistently awesome for 20+ hours. It gets samey after a while, but that’s a problem with pretty much everything. Go play the game! You’ll get a good impression after a few hours, no need to play for days on end.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2S0EbUrCy4

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This is what they were going for. At the end of the game they bring back the guy that killed you the most (even if you killed him- he’ll just be all scarred up.)

Speaking of scarring- that was another great feature. If you set a captain on fire and he runs away, next time you see him he will be significantly burned, and say something like “You! You burned me and left me for dead! I’ll get you for that!” It sounds cheesy but it worked really well as a special moment between characters that have a history… of killing each other.

The system breaks a little when you get the ability to “Brand” captains- basically you make them friendlies. If they happen to be in the area you can get them to come fight for you with their little gang of minions. They can be a great distraction.

One of the best/worst things you can do is to brand a bunch of the lesser captains and have them assassinate their commander. The stronger captain does this great line like “Why’d you guys want to meet all the way out here?” before they gang up on him. You can get involved or not at that point- I usually just let my dudes take care of it. While it’s a cool thing to do once, it kind of breaks the game by removing a tougher enemy for you.

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First I have to say the theme was totally wrong for the game play. You play as a Lord of the Rings ranger. But the game mechanics all play like Assasians Creed. It was very off putting.

That said the nemesis system was pretty good. Here is my take on it.

How it worked

The goal of the game was to kill the big bad guy who had cursed you to never die. This was a bad thing because all of your family were just murdered, and you wanted to be reunited with them. Sounds straight forward, right?

Problem is, the bad guy never comes out of his well fortified den. And no human or Elf could get near him.

The solution is simple. If you cause enough chaos in his armies, he will have to come sort it out. And when he does, you can kill him.

In order to bring out the big villain, you have to kill all four of his warcheifs. Which sounds straight forward, except his warcheifs are also protected by a similar system, so you have to draw them out by killing their captains.

There are about four levels of this in the nemesis system.

The whole system is further complicated by starting off completely obscured. The player has no idea which orcs are aligned to which warcheifs.

Every time the player dies the nemesis system progresses a ‘turn’. Turns run as follows:

  • The orc that killed you gets promoted to captain if it’s a generic orc, or up a level if it’s already a captain.
  • The captains resolve missions, some will die, some will gain levels or be promoted.
  • Any orcs who gained levels get new abilities.

How if effects gameplay

The player is given free reign to navigate the nemesis system however they like. There are a few early game missions, that basically function as tutorials to teach the system. There are side missions as players gain new abilities. But the core of the mission system is player directed via the nemesis system.

Player goals could include

  • Kill a particular warcheif
  • Interrogate a captain to gain knowledge of a warcheif
  • Kill a captain who is a body guard of a warcheif
  • Interogate an orc to gain knowledge of a captain
  • Disrupt a particular captains mission
  • Aid a particular captain in their mission
  • Kill a captain

And that’s just the high level goals. Low level goals might include triggering an alarm at one camp to draw orcs away from another. Or to draw captains to a location where you can spy on them. And so on.

Captain mechanics

In the context it’s worth talking about how the captains worked. Captains had levels and gained experience each time the nemesis system took a turn. As they gained levels they gained abilities. And these weren’t little abilities, it was things like “Immune to stealth attacks”, “Unblockable” and so on. Try also gained weaknesses, like “Vulnerable to arrows”, “Afraid of wargs”, and so on.

This had several effects. First up it placed a penalty on death, death meant the captains could all get stronger and get new abilities.

Secondly it meant reconnaissance was really important. Knowing the strentghs and weaknesses of your opponent was the difference between an easy fight and being pounded into the ground. A large part of the game was iterogating orcs to find out details about the captains.

Thirdly it gave players an incentive to game the system. Getting a Captian with easy abilities promoted to bodyguard status meant an easier fight later.

Finally it gave the enemies a lot of personality. Some Captians were impossible to beat with in the early game. So when you saw them coming you would run or hide. You got to know a lot of them by their name, as well as their individual models and tactics. And eventually beating one of these difficult enemies was a huge rush.

Anyway that’s enough rambling for now. Let me know if you want more details.

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Thanks for the crazy good write up! This is exactly what I was looking for. Any more details would be welcome.

What other big moments did the system set up? I love the idea that the same guys were introduced early and you got to know them by name. That kind of thing can bring so much to a game.

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Scarring systems and the like really bring tons to a game as well.

XCOM had scarring features built in, they scrapped for release (some mods can unlock). If your guys took major wounds they would sometimes roll up a scar. It really brought tons of personality in, even though their system wasn’t great (I see why they scrapped it).

Mordheim, City of the Damned also had a perm injury system that added a lot. “Peg leg” actually visually replacing one of your guys legs was fantastic. I kept using some of my maimed characters long after I should have replaced them, because the wounds gave them personality.

I’m not sure if this kind of thing works the same way without strong visuals though. I’ve played other games with perm injuries that were just represented with an icon and never had the same feeling about it.

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In the final sequence once you had defeated the system, you got thrown into an arena style battle against all of the captains who had scored the most kills on you. Finally you duel the guy with the most kills. I’m not sure if my play through was unbalanced, but a lot of the arena guys I faced off were very early ones who I kept encountered before I’d figured out the game. The learning curve was such that I died a lot more against the easier early game enemies. In the late game I died a lot less because I’d figured out when to run instead of fighting. So the finale was a little disappointing.

Throughout the game the orcs remember your previous encounters before them. It starts off with things like ‘who’s the human’, then ‘didn’t I kill you already’, ‘how many times do I have to kill you’, eventually they name you ‘grave walker’. The orcs also remember encounters where you didn’t get killed. You can stealth in and listen to orc conversations ‘I hear that captain ran from the grave worker, screamed like a stuck pig he did’ and other similar comments. They will also brag about what they will do to you when they catch you.

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Man, I wish I could do something like that. Lot of work making something like that function correctly…

I guess like @Martin_H said above, it’s about balancing and getting that balance right so it doesn’t feel clunky is something that takes tons and tons of work. Probably the most labor intensive kind of polish… :confused:

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Hrm… maybe I’m writing this off too early. Anyone have any thoughts on how to make a ‘budget’ version of something like this - something that would work reasonably well, with less of a massive time investment?

You guys are smart, can something like this be done on the slim without losing all the stuff that makes it cool?

What are the best parts of it, is there some way to extract and simplify the meat without putting in a billion hours?

Or is this the kind of thing that really needs full 100% investment.

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Before you featurecreep yourself into a corner there, keep in mind that Shadows of Mordor is a game about a fairly generic dude that isn’t all too interesting, so they kinda had to make the enemies more interesting and give them flavor. In Jagged Alliance 2 your mercs had all the flavor and character in the world, and except for Deidranna and Elliot almost all of the enemies where faceless generic badguys for you to mow down. Your game is structurally closer to Jagged Alliance, you should make your own guys interesting before you spend a lot of time making the enemies interesting imho. What you could/should think about how to implement though, is what kind of mechanics you can borrow that create the emergent gameplay goals and engage the player. Like e.g. each dude could have a hidden sidequest or two, related to his past, that only becomes visible after a while. Like you find out he was on the run from some group and now you gotta pay them off or fight them, or you go somewhere in the world and he’ll say “Damn, I’ve been hunting that bastard for years, didn’t think I’d ever see him again. We gotta get him! Now!” and you either let him go to fight alone or help him with all your men.

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This is kind of what I’m thinking “emergent gameplay goals”

At this point I’m definitely not looking at Mordor in terms of making your guys more interesting, more in terms of creating an end game and focusing on developing the bad guys and opposition.

I’ve been working on AI agents that run around the world and stuff, I’m looking at ways to make them feel more alive and interactive. Ideally ways that are meaty and influence gameplay, not just window dressing.

Maybe this is crazy, but in some ways, I think if I can develop the opposition so…

I think this kind of thing might be able to deliver better game play than developing your party members, especially if they die on a semi regular basis.

The idea is that if you have permadeath, then developing badguys is a way to keep you engaged even if your favorite PC dies. Ideally your goal would be to “take down that guy” instead of “level up my guy and get him new pants”.

In a way I’m hoping to kind of shift the focus from grinding to overcoming challenges. Might not be possible, but why not ask/think about it.

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Iirc you’ve got things in place for character traits already, you could randomly save defeated enemies into a pool and later randomly pick from that pool again. You could every few missions have someone on the enemy team that already fought you and therefore gets a rage buff against you and has more experience than other enemies. Doesn’t need much more than a dialog one-liner to communicate to the player that they fought you already in the past. You could also every now and then put one of them into the hiring pool. They’d have better start skills than your run of the mill drunkard, but they’d have a really bad attitude because they’re only working for you because their past defeat got them kicked out of their old faction and now they are with their back to the wall and out of options. “Disloyal” could be a trait acquired by your people when you do things they disapprove of, and lost if you do enough things they like. That’d be a mechanic that you could weave into the open-world decision making you were going for iirc. Making that decision matrix of e.g. “do I help this settlement or not” more complex, might make for a more interesting and engaging experience, and having mercs with conflicting personal goals because of their vastly different backgrounds adds a flavour of uniqueness.

Clear gameplay goals should go over flavor, yes. But do you need to organically “grow” these from complex systems? Is there significant enough benefit over just writing parameters for 10 - 20 VIP enemies that each have a small backstory and varied gameplay stats? You could use more generic missions to gain favours which you can trade for intel to better prepare yourself and find/unlock the showdown battles against the “bosses” and free the world from their reign of terror or whatever.

Not sure that works with permadeath though. You need to lose first to get mad enough to really care about killing that one specific badguy, but if you already permanently lost people to them, the damage is already done and I’m not so sure that victory would feel as good as with the Shadow of Mordor nemesis system where you always play the same resurrected guy. The narrative is different. In SoM you prevail, you are the winner, period. When your guy A dies and a few days later your guy B takes revenge, that still is a story where you lost one of your dudes permanently. Probably something you shouldn’t listen to me about, since I don’t like permadeath games very much, but imho it’s worth considering.

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This kind of thing is exactly what I’m looking for, practical game play consequences. The idea of being able to hire a guy you beat up later is an awesome little game play story. It’s also fairly easy to implement.

The trick is, how do you introduce him to the player so that the player remembers who he is when he comes up for hire? If the player doesn’t remember the name of the dude, the sequence doesn’t click.

Ideally procedurally producing this kind of thing is far better than scriped. Is it feasible? Donno, what do you think?

How hard is it to grow these kinds of things procedurally? Can it be done on the cheap?

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Shadow of war is the sequel, it’s adding to that system with Dynamic allies now. All cinematic use a spawn system that allow for good framing by using the level design to good uses.

Also since the orcs system is procedural (a good example of its application outside level design), hitting waltkthrough and guide might help as they have to deconstruct the system (not set path) to share strategy.