Any ideas to implement a game with 2d side scroller that moves from left to right, with a world design that’s more spread out? I know one way to handle would be to create each area its own section and then have the player choose which place to go to next on a map. But how can this be handled with a metroidvania design?
I think Legend of Zelda II almost handled this, but Link would be on a overworld map RPG style to travel to other locations. I was wondering if there’s a way to travel to different locations on an overworld map without having to resort to an RPG style travel gameplay.
Hmm, if it were top-down then you could just have a really big open world, like Ultima II.
But if you really mean side-scroller, i.e. a side view, then this is a bit limiting. What you might do is have places, like doorways and signposts, where you can press “up” to switch to a different scene. For example, walk up to a doorway, press “up”, and now you’re in the building, on the left end of a stage. Go left (right off the stage) and you pop back out the doorway to where you were before. Or out on the open road, let’s say one that goes East-West on the world map, you could reach a signpost, with signs showing what is left and right from that point, and a third sign that points “back” into the scenery (i.e. points north). Pressing Up near this sign would switch you to a different slice of the world, now on a north/south road, with a signpost that lets you switch back to the east/west view.
You could design a whole world of these intersecting linear slices, allowing you to travel anywhere without ever having to go to an overworld map or fast-travel from place to place.
Ori and the blind forest did something pretty interesting. It’s a side-scrolling metroidvania, with a metroid like map, but also features a cool world map as well in it. Going up in the metroid map moves you north of the world map, going north east of the metroid map also moves you north east on the world map. I think this could work but what’s others’ opinions about this? Different exits can go to different directions in the world map?
Wouldn’t this confuse the player though? I mean a 2D metroidvania would require a minimap that’s 2D and having them going through different intersecting linear slices wouldn’t work would it?
I recommend you the series BOSS KEY from Game Maker Tool Kit, for anything about metroidvania level design
the few first episodes is about zelda
but it breach into metroid and castlevania after that
Sounds like you’ve never had an NES. 
What JoeStrout was describing is basically how Battle of Olympus worked. No minimap there either. The difficulty in navigating was actually a gameplay feature in some areas.
You should look more at the NES library. You mentionened Zelda 2 already, but there are dozens of other games that solve the problem that you are describing in different ways.
Of course I owned a NES. Which is why I also know it was a challenge to do what I’m describing in a good way. Zelda 2 isn’t a metroidvania. I’m talking about a metroidvania like hollow knight, but with an overworld like hyper light drifter. I’m just fishing for ideas but I’ll take a look at battle of Olympus.
Love boss keys series. I’ve watched pretty much every video regarding metroidvanias already though. None have spoken about a proper metroidvania with an overworld design combined with a side view navigation design.
It’s because the specifics as those of your project, you fail to abstract the lesson because it’s agnostic to how the game is view. Basically it’s just lock and key structure, and you organize them as per your intent. You are overthinking it to mask your insecurity, basically you worry you will make it a bad thing, the reality is that you’ll figure out by making it, because acting and thinking is the same, act to think, don’t think and not act.
So the question is what navigation aesthetics do you really want? why do you need an overworld to being with? An overworld is just like a dungeon really in term of navigation, probably with a different kind of challenge.
Let’s take ocarina of time
As you see the game is rather linear at the beginning it doesn’t mean it’s linear™. Rhe game cleverly use a hub and spoke with Hyrule field to give you a sense of scale, it sparse with little challenge, it’s basically a level select that pace the game. Hyrule field lead to a bunch of social gathering that are contained open world, kokiri forest is the first, it’s a non linear place that teach you the basics and ease you into having many options, by having people to talk, mini exploration challenge, a few sandbox challenge and two quest for a gated exit, both quest force you to look around, teaching you how the gameplay works. Once you complete the quest, you unlock the first dungeon, and then you are letting go to the whole world which is just an expansion on the lesson on that first area. So the aesthetics is basically hierarchical open world with scattered gate. Notice than even when you get on the field, you can still only access the dungeon in a specifics order, before you are let go, and even when you are let go, you are given only two leads over the three possible (which mean you can figure out for yourself on your own). They just open gradually the game as you master freedom and choice.
Other game do it differently, see breath of the wild, though hierachy of open world still applies (fields → social gathering → dungeon) but is much more diluted (field → shrine) by taking page from skyrim.
They talk about it in depth more here
Really the question is not how it is done, but how you want it to be done, what are you trying to achieve. The same principle applies for any type of level.
Let me try my best to explain what it is that I’m trying to accomplish. My apologies for the misunderstanding…
So think of Metroid. Samus goes left, right, and can jump on platforms that lead to other pathways that can go left or right. The world map here is strictly 2-D - there are no paths that lets the player know that “you are going north of this field” or “north west of this field” in a 2-D map.
Now think about the Legend of Zelda. Link can go in every direction, and the map is an inverted structure that is from the top-down, in contrast to Metroid’s map. This structure is only good to let the player know that they are going in all directions except vertically or downwards, which the Metroid map is capable of doing.
What I want to achieve (if possible): A Metroid like gameplay, with a mini-map that displays a 2-D structure. But also contains an overworld map like that of legend of Zelda that can let the player know that they are north of a forest, or south-west of some mountain area, but the mini-map is strictly 2-D. Basically I don’t want a “Level-Based” structure to the map, nor do I want a separate overworld map like Legend of Zelda 2 from the NES. I am not aware of a game that has tackled this but if so, I’m open to suggestions. JoeStrout kind of got what I’m saying I guess… but hope I’m clear.
In your first post it sounded like you wanted the player to be able to navigate in the overworld map in some way, but now it sounds like you want it to be display/hud only?
Indeed. Only display. Navigation only left/right, with verticality as seen in Metroid. The active map would be a mini-map, but there’s also a larger over-world map (as seen in the Legend of Zelda), simply for the purpose of giving more options for exploration rather than just a 2-Dimensional world that’s usually seen in Metroidvanias like Hollow-knight, castlevania, Metroid. Does it make sense? It’s basically both 2-D and Top-Down at the same time.
So you want a side scrolling game, with a 2d top down overworld map for situational awareness?
Technically I don’t think it change anything, notice the graph I’m showing you are node based, people don’t think of space as continuous but a set of relation, that’s why Subway map are so effective. Now I’m not saying you should do a subway map, I’m saying that a long as you maintain clear and legible relationship between element, the view and complexity of the representation don’t matter, human can navigate abstract space just fine as long they have relation (see the lost wood in all zelda where it appear).
Now We can probably breakdown what you want. So if I understand correctly you want a seamless navigation in scrolling view, while having a seamless navigation in top down 2d view, sounds doable. Side scrolling view is just that, a representation, it’s not “2d” because objects have overlap, it’s actually a 3d representation translated into a plane. For example look at this Kirby game:
You are walking in a tower, and enemy appear on the opposide side of teh tower, it’s 2d, but really it’s representing a 3d navigation around a cylinder, it’s probably abstract because dimension aren’t conserved (that is circling the tower is probably longer that the tower circumference). Why I pick this example? well it is to show how arbitrary representation can be, and yet feel tangible.
When you play some 2d multi scrolling game like metroid, you may have to enter door, which is a side step from the usual walking plane, and the interior is often bigger than what’s seen outside (you don’t have to, it’s just a possibility), entering the door you are effectively walking in 3D, let’s stay simple for now, and represent the walking plane as a straight 2D corridor, when you enter that door, you go into an adjacent cell to that corridor. Now here is the kicker, the corridor don’t have to straight, it just have to be a line, so it can bend and curve in the 2d map, it doesn’t matter, so basically you top view in essence is just line that intersect, and you can represent them however you want, each intersection is one element that allow to change lane like a door, or even designer whim.
A game like sonic for example is a 2 lane platformer (else loop wouldn’t be possible) and there is time where a floor isn’t accessible because you are on the other lane, the level design is very clever and hide it.
There is no reason this can’t be a 2d top down map, you just have to move across the lane and change at doors.
It’s actually not new in 2d side scrolling game to show a 2d map in top down view
The path between level is the path you cross during the level, the main difference perhaps is that you want to show it in real time rather than after the fact like in the mario games.
Do you know the “Demon Crest” game from snes.
I have known demon crest but not played it. From the gameplay videos though, the overworld map navigation is more like jrpgs , which is not what I want. I want the whole game to be purely side scrolling, metroidvania style with such an overworld design structure that is not linear.
Thanks for the insight. I think it’ll take some experimenting on my end. But I just posted this topic here to see other’s opinions. That Kirby example is good. The thing I’m trying to solve is metroidvanias usually have only one giant area like a castle or underground. Super Mario world almost tackled this but at the overworld selection it breaks the rule I’m trying to impose. But you’re right perhaps I should leave room to players imagination and trust them to understand.
Maybe you are looking for on rail 2d game too then, if what you picked up is the kirby sequence, or the flying section of night into dream, it’s 2d but it twist and turn freely as per the level designer whim, 3d sonic game does that too:
Here is one of the route of night in a top view of the map, the game as event that change lane too, this can be generalized to a full metroidvania map.
In this video 30s in you see the shift to 2d, and how the map shift and turn it’s lane. Notice even the 3d section are still kinda just line and map well to 2d too. It just highlight the diversity of view and how flexible you can be with it while maintaining 2d control.
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The concept is straightforward when it comes to 2.5 D games like those you’ve shown. Like you said in your previous post, I think it’s all about making things visually clear so the player understands where in the overworld they are, even if the whole game is a 2-D structure.