iclone & Character Creator (Extended License) & indie

If you have limited budget for game development, please read carefully.

On July, the newest extended license is applied.

Related posts:
https://forum.reallusion.com/520853/I-just-read-the-Standard-and-Extended-License?PageIndex=4
https://forum.reallusion.com/519347/So-what-is-the-deal-with-licensing?PageIndex=10
All products in the marketplace are much more expensive than before.

Character Creator 4 must be used with iclone8. Not compatible with iclone 7.
https://forum.reallusion.com/522657/CC4-cannot-export-to-iClone7-What-sort-of-madness-is-this

Is the problem for some people that you now need to pay for the ā€œextendedā€ license for game dev regardless of the size of your audience?

I donā€™t know about the change in cost, but the change in license terms seems to be a pretty big improvement from my perspective, if the old terms are what I vaguely remember them being.

From memory, when I looked at Reallusion stuff maybe around a year ago there was a ā€œMass Distribution Licenseā€ required if your game reached a significant audience, which could be approved or declined at Reallusionā€™s whim. The approval step was enough for me to not bother using it at the time because it introduced uncertainty.

A few weeks ago I looked at their stuff again, saw the ā€œExtended Licenseā€ terms which no longer need case-by-case approval, and was happy enough to start using their stuff.

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You better read the related posts first.
https://forum.reallusion.com/520853/I-just-read-the-Standard-and-Extended-License?PageIndex=4
https://forum.reallusion.com/519347/So-what-is-the-deal-with-licensing?PageIndex=10

You must at least buy extended license of products in content store/ marketplace,
if you intend to use CC4 in game development
(even you have only one client of your game).

Yes, I knew that going in. My question is why is that a problem? As far as I am aware commercially oriented game licenses always cost more there in the past, but previously also had a vague approval step which is now gone.

Iā€™ve not compared before/after prices because I wasnā€™t interested in the product before.

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This is no different from before, you always had to get the correct license for correct distribution. It sounds more like you were using an incorrect license before than anything else

Hello angrypenguin and MadeFromPolygons,

If you have bought their products before, you know the situation.

In the past, there were only icontent and exported license (generally 1.5 * price of icontent)
Now, there are standard and extended license (generally 3 * price of standard).

Both icontent and standard canā€™t be used in game development, only in iclone and rendering.

If you are still using iclone 7/8 and CC3/4 for exporting characters and related cloths, please recalculate your budget.

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So the bit which bothers you is the price increase? Fair enough.

Boy how dreadful modern web design can be today? How do I see the price and differences about licenses?

You donā€™t. It is a surprise!

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Hi neoshaman,

you may check the price by clicking an arrow (just after the Standard license) each time.
for example,

Standard license price is

You need to click the arrow to see the extended license price each time!

Some users and I think the license term was changed suddenly.
Itā€™s fair only, if they change the term BEFORE we buy or upgrade the softwares (which is not cheap).

When we buy or upgrade the iclone or CC, we thought the cloths could be affordable.
If we know this license term and price change, we will even not buy or upgrade iclone or CC because the budget is out of expectation!

You may read these posts
https://forum.reallusion.com/520853/I-just-read-the-Standard-and-Extended-License?PageIndex=4
https://forum.reallusion.com/519347/So-what-is-the-deal-with-licensing?PageIndex=10

I bought this softwareā€¦looked at the license!!! and it sits idle on my HD just in case I ever run into someone needing a config for it but will NEVER use one of their characters in any app I create. MakeHuman and ZBrush will give me what i want without the draconian BS of this company.

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ā€¦ā€œso hardā€ export things as Obj/FBX and retopoly at Wrap 4Dā€¦ bye bye licenceā€¦

have you used the software? Itā€™s a user interface nightmare. Whole thing gives off a ton of red flags to me.

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Yeah, I never bothered with these character creators because, aside from the fact that they tend to be expensive, the licensing terms are always pretty confusing. Even MB-Lab, which the developers have abandoned and offered for free- It sounds great until you read that the basemeshes your character is made from are AGPL. Does that mean the character I desigm is AGPL too? And my entire project? I donā€™t know, Iā€™m not going to bother with it.

Also, thereā€™s no easy way to make your own costumes for these type of characters and have it rigged properly to the skeleton and morph-bones/morph-targets or whatever. Most of the time you have to pay extra for individual costume items on some type of online store.

Id rather just make my own character in Blender, even if it ends-up looking like an N64 character from the 90s.

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ā€¦I donā€™t worry about licenses like that, from companies like Reallusion or Daz, I prefer to make my own characters too and with the technology that exists today, even in Zbrush - itā€™s easy to automate the creation of these characters. But there are other ways of re-editing ready-made things and transforming them - with a few clicks - into something absolutely authorial - not even ā€˜James Bondā€™ would suspect otherwiseā€¦ let alone some boring companies that make money selling confusing licensesā€¦ and appropriating what does not belong to themā€¦ by mere ā€˜cryingā€™ā€¦

Manuel bastioni and makehuman had that, though.

But yes, having your own is better, as you leave personal touch in the game, while stock characters are often recognizable.

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Itā€™s very difficult to recognize the similarity between humanoid characters in games, after all, everyone knows, humans vary a lot, some have 8 arms and 3 legs, others 6 eyesā€¦ others 7 headsā€¦ :stuck_out_tongue:

Joking aside, I think some things could become ā€˜standardā€™. Iā€™ve always advocated that an engine like Unity should have a ā€˜metha Humanā€™ by its side, supported by the idea of ā€˜similarities and common thingsā€™ in games. But, after reading a topic in this same forum about a game called Gigaya, I confess that I got very discouragedā€¦
.

Unity has UMA :stuck_out_tongue:

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The demo is not running at playable frame rates on my computer.

But to be frank, I mostly need for face morph and animation blendshape. Thatā€™s the hardest and slowest part of making a human nowadays, people arenā€™t has regarding for anything below the neck, so deforming a base mesh is enough.

Iā€™m personally going to use makehuman in the short term, the mesh is passable enough and export is cc0, but the head expression morph are horrible, and some stuff need some retouching like the ears. Texture is not great, but Iā€™m not too concerned about it, studying for dark skin showed me that skin and its details can be automated to good enough results. And breaking into hue saturation and luminance components give me a lot of control over accuracy.

What remain is blendshape, I downloaded the heretic demo for reference and isolated the head morph, so far I figured out how to extract them from the baked data of unity (using bakemesh() and storing result as mesh in an array), and next is to run a series of experiments to test assumption and portability. For example looking at vector divergence from base mesh, comparing local displacement to average, etcā€¦ and trying to infer rules that will help author things automatically.

I also need to look into laplacian stuff to extract data. Thatā€™s the divergence of the gradientā€¦ FOR ARTIST, TRANSLATION: the gradient is basically how things change between too neighbor elements, in an heightmap that would the slope direction between height, the divergence is simply the difference between slope neighbor, which I intend to capture as a dot product. Basically I will do a uv unwrap storing fragment model position, do gradient of that, then the divergence, and look at how it evolve from basemesh to blendshape. Which should give me something topology agnostique. I have no idea if thatā€™s the academic laplacian mesh transform thoughā€¦

I have already noticed a few things for optimization, and figure out where are the pain points. The apple facs system for example is the minimum sets of expressive blendshape, anything more is just control and accuracy on the same set, so while heretic have 300 shape, polywink 150, they are just the same shape with extras, or combine shape for ease. The mouth shape cover a large number of blendshape, it concentrates quasi all difficulty in any metrics like capture, animation or sculpting, but is also the most YAGNI if you donā€™t aim at cinematic realism. And solving facial performance is basically solving the mouth area first.

Edit
Also tip, if you can map any head model to the same UV, transferring data from one to another is trivial, no matter what the topology is, you just render paraneter results to texture, then sample the texture back per vertex using the uv position on the texture. Easy transfer from high poly to low poly.