I read somewhere that gamers don’t remember plot details when asked to recall them after playing games. They remember characters, weapons, enemies even lines of dialogue and music.
But not plot.
Given this, it doesn’t surprise me that many big games these days have no real plot.
Is there any point in establishing and telling a well designed plot, then?
I can’t think of any gamers I know that fit into that category, and I know a lot of gamers.
If their pool of gamers was COD enthusiasts then sure, I can see that they wouldn’t be interested. However, games that are built with compelling stories, lore and plot are memorable to all those that are interested in playing them and who do actually play them so I think this is more of a question of improving market appeal to subjectively disinterested demographics. Once you reach a high enough level of quality and gameplay appeal then you’ll overflow into appealing to more demographics than story enthusiasts so it’s kind of relative to your game’s potential to spread across multiple genres of appeal.
[Citation needed]
Yeah, I saw that talk. It’s kinda not… super great because, much like rigid ludologists, people who make sweeping statements about games writing like that tend to sweep a lot of things that a well crafted narrative can bring to the table under the rug. It reminds me of Persona 4, actually. I find the plot to that game absolutely dreadfully boring, but it has a huge focus on character interactions and characters in general. Because of that, I can’t actually remember a thing about the plot. Not because there is something inherently wrong with the notion of a well constructed narrative, but because the game had a poorly constructed one.
Really, that’s my problem with a lot of games. The narrative decisions in regards to plot often just facilitate the moving forward of the game, rather than to engage with the player. Really, you should strive for a balance in each area depending on the needs of your game, but games honestly (especially lately) tend to lean far too hard into either ludology or characters, but not plot.
I’m one.
Many of the games I play have no plot at all (Beat Saber, QuiVr, KSP, Bloons TD, etc.). Thinking back to the plot-driven games I’ve most enjoyed — Oblivion, Spider-Man 2, and Tron Evolution — I fit the OP’s description exactly.
Here’s my summary of Oblivion’s plot: a dragon appears, much carnage happens, you get away, have a bunch of adventures, and eventually Patrick Stewart appears and says some kind words.
Spider-Man 2: Lots of crime in Manhattan, including Dock Ock (whom I assume you eventually defeat, though I don’t actually remember how that goes down).
Tron Evolution: tons of fantastic acrobatic combat and wall-jumping as you, uh, pursue some goal that involves some sort of virus guy.
To be clear, I loved all of these games and played each one through more than once (which is really rare for me). But yeah, a few years later, I don’t remember much of anything about the plot. At the time, I’m sure I was into the story to varying extent (I remember being particularly intrigued by Tron’s). But years later, what I remember is the action, not the plot.
Maybe. Remember, at the time I was engaged by the plot, and that’s what really matters. Whether people can remember your plot years later doesn’t really matter much. And then of course there are gamers (like the other posters in this thread) who actually do care about the plot.
So I think there’s a point to it, if that’s the kind of game you’re making. Just don’t expect all your carefully crafted plot details to make a lasting impression.
So to make a business analogy, investing in plot has a bad ROI.
Some games have plots, others simply have goals. Some players like elaborate plots, others do not. Most of us enjoy both at different times. Usually when someone posts something like…do games need plots…I am assuming they do not want to create a plot so looking for someone to confirm that what they want to do is okay.
Make your game how you want it and if it is good, plot or no plot, there will be a player base for it. It might not be the plot-oriented players, but there are still plenty out there who will not care.
A) most plots are unmemorable. B) few games make the plot integral to gameplay.
For the first one, that’s not an issue exclusive to games. If I asked what the plot of Ghostbusters was, the main responses would capture the gist of the conflicts (starting a business, fighting off the paranormal shenanigans) while dropping the finer points (like the antagonistic EPA dude). People boil plot down to the main thrust ex post facto, ergo people tend to remember plots that are simpler and more straightforward. This is why people remember FF7’s plot of fighting Sephiroth, but are going to be way the fuck murkier about FF8’s ‘fight the sorceress… a few times because love’ plot. It’s way easier to remember scenes, than to parse the story as a whole. Add on to that the sheer amount of time games take, and you’re bound to have people who’ve already lost most of the plot by the time they finish the game.
As for the second, most games only use play to push the plot. Get to a point and push a button is about all that most games really require that the player think about. Narrative is largely there as set dressing, and is largely extraneous. It’s like being served a meal on multiple plates. While they are intended to go together, you can choose one or the other and it won’t matter. There is rarely consideration that the two are intrinsically tied together.
This is a really good point. Especially for players like me — if I’m into a game, I’ll play it maybe a couple hours a week, because that’s literally all the time I can spare. At that pace it may be months between plot points A and B, and by the time I get to B I’ll have already forgotten A. This has caused me grief (loss of fun) on some occasions, where remembering or understanding the plot was kinda important.
So, if you do make a plot-driven game, please keep it as simple you can, and don’t expect players to remember the details. Or, make sure you have something like a log, that lets them refresh their memory on what’s going on when they’ve forgotten.
Just because you can’t remember the plot doesn’t mean it wasn’t important to the experience at the time.
I can’t remember what I ate for dinner last night.
So what?
Just started replaying a favorite from my teenager days : Shenmue. I don’t remember jack about the plot except it’s about revenge, yet I remember that I loved the game immensely, and now I get to enjoy it all over again.
If the game is centered around a story, tell a good one. If it’s not, don’t bother. Simple. Same as anything else.
In modeling, you don’t want any vertices that aren’t defining the silhouette. It’s just efficiency. If something isn’t pulling its weight, remove it. Same thing with game design. Is a story crucial to the game experience you want to deliver? If not, remove it. If it is, do it right.
Of course. I’d personally argue that games are better suited for focusing on game mechanics and characters, but I think that’s more a reflection of my personal tastes. If you have a solid story idea that you think will be memorable, there’s definitely an audience for it.
I do think it’s a little more difficult to get a strong story across in a game. Doesn’t make it impossible.
We also have to keep in mind that most players only complete 15% of a game. It would seem the camp you’re describing account for the minority of overall gamers, but the majority of your friends. Which doesn’t tell me much about gamers in general but a lot about you and your friends. That said, I would probably not try to make a game to cater to the extreme minority of highly opinionated die-hard gamers, the reasoning for this being two fold. One, there’s not a lot of you guys to begin with. Two, all of you are paying upwards of $60 a title for games with budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars. If there were more of you, games would probably be a little less expensive, when you think about it. Movies cost a lot less than games, even though they cost just as much to produce and market. I digress. If you drill down deep enough into the fringes you’ll always find some marginalized individual that is the exception to the rules, but in this case it’s clear. Most people don’t care about a game’s plot, they never even get past the first act.
Why do we have to keep that in mind? Source? How could this possibly be tested?
Riot has the most successful product in the gaming world. Perhaps ever.
It’s not just a sweeping generalization, but a sweeping generalization gathered from real player experiences. Actual user stories from real products.
I agree with the ludologist statements in general, that they tend to discount things that are not specifically ludology, but I can’t discount the veracity of their analysis. Ultimately, I would rather have a dedicated game designer direct the pacing of the game than a story writer.
I’m guilty myself of not remembering plot details. I just play games one portion at a time, trying to figure out what to do next. If I don’t get bored within fifteen minutes, that’s a good game. If I play for hours without meaning to, that’s a great game. It’s that simple.
Maybe you would enjoy reading some novels. Those are heavy on character development and plot. Games are always going to be games. We go through this ebb and flow where game developers think they are film makers for a bit, but the best games are games first and storytelling mediums second or even third.
I see. I am burdened with knowledge. And you wish to share that burden. Steam data shows players only complete about 15% of a game then move on, but still rate it highly if they enjoyed it. It was quite a revelation. It means as a designer, the first 15% of your game earns you good reviews, the rest is basically just for your dedicated players and the last tidbits are only for completionists. In other words, 80% of your games public reaction comes from 20% of your game.
Anything is possible, doesn’t make it a good idea.
The times I remember being interested in games was when I had this impression that there was an important plot going on, but I had no idea of the details. The characters were all excited about something or another. Voice acting compelled me to care. I was convinced the plot had to be epic, or something. When watching games played by others, though, I note that they are often contrived and characters are just devices for pushing the player toward the cheese at the end of the maze.
That bit about Patrick Stewart was hilarious and out of nowhere.
Actually, I am on my 4th iteration of the opening scenario. Each time I keep getting stuck on a different impediment. Not because my story isn’t working, but because the events don’t end up presenting the character with a proper motive to pick up a weapon and fight the bad guys. Often, the best option for the character is to cut and run, save his own skin, or negotiate with the enemy. Its very difficult to craft a believable action scenario where all character motives are scrutinized. People generally don’t pick up guns and re-enact Die Hard.
I had the thought leap into my brain, I am doing it backwards. If I keep trying to find a way that my characters will naturally carry out the required series of actions the game demands, it will either never work or take many months to navigate.
I realized that few games do this, if any. Even many novels and films have characters do unrealistic things, and they lampshade it by saying “I know I should have a gun and call 911 but I have to defeat the villain bare handed without calling cops or using a gun because my parents were killed with a gun and I loathe them, and the cops will accuse me of the murder!” It’s not what a person would really do. But it’s what the story demands. In games, it’s about what the game demands.
Plot is really little more than caulking to fill in and smooth the gaps, sometimes, especially when it comes to action.