Legality and ethics of reference art

What’s your opinions on when reference art goes too far?

Obviously Tunic was in their right to use Link as reference art as a basis for their design.

I don’t think anyone but the delusional morons on Nintendo’s legal team would have a problem with that.

So, where’s the line?

Konami famously used stills of Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger for Contra’s box art, which I think is pretty fair, if not a little icky.

Then there’s straight up tracing Ravenloft for Simon’s Quest, which I personally think is just straight up theft and I’m pretty sure most lawyers would agree.

And of course there’s all of AI, which I honestly don’t have a strong opinion about to say anything on the matter.

So here’s some hypothetical situations that I’m curious about your opinion of:

-retopologizing a ripped model-

Take a model ripped from a game and then retopologize it, or references from other models and mix matching, to make an original character. I’m not talking about reproducing a character, I’m saying make an original character from references of other models.

I think this is morally grey, and possibly legally, but good luck proving that you did it since every vector will be original.

-grabbing key frames and tweaking them-

This is definitely illegal and definitely unethical imo, but good luck proving it.

But yeah, grab some key frames from a game, adjust them slightly enough so that all the math is slightly different.

-tracing animations from video-

I don’t think anyone would call foul on this considering OG Prince of Persia, but worth mentioning, especially leading into…

-tracing animation from a game-

I don’t think anyone can really argue that tracing from a movie is ok, but tracing from a game isn’t. The ethics and legality shouldn’t magically change based on the medium.

-taking color pallets from a film still-

Figured I’d end this with the most mild just to weed out the contrarians. But yeah, take a screenshot from, say, a ghibli movie then making a color pallet based on it.

What’s your opinion on all of this?

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Prince of Persia didn’t rotoscope from random films though. The film used for rotoscoping from was made as part of the production.

You are mistaken.

While it is true the running and jumping was rotoscoped from the dev’s brother, the sword fighting was taken from a Robinhood movie.

Oh right, the movie that entered public domain 20 years before Prince of Persia came out because the copyright was never renewed.

Why is this a fight?

Like why can’t you respond like a normal person and say something along the lines of “Actually the movie was public domain by that point”, but nah, being rude and confrontational while not actually participating in the conversation at all is another way to go I suppose.

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Give your examples scrutiny. You didn’t do that and, if you did, you’d start realizing the problems you’ve presented.

Retopologizing a ripped model? Cool, try it with Mickey Mouse. Try it with Mario. See how well that works out. Eventually you are going to run into the issue that the problem here isn’t just that you’re outright building off work in a way you’re not supposed to because you don’t really have the right to remix that output in a commercial context, but also potential trademark on characters. Every vector being original is a complete non-issue. You can retopologize (admittedly poorly) in most modelling software with a single modifier and get original vectors. It means nothing.

So now we’ve got tracing from games and movies, which can be a problem. Functionally, this can end up being indistinct from tweaking keyframes, and stolen animations in games have gotten takedown notices. The ethics of these things is fundamentally meaningless, but the legal issues have extreme meaning. Even in free things, you can run into these issues because companies will protect what they see as theirs.

OK, I recognize someone with borderline personality disorder when I see one.

I don’t need to engage with you any further, have a nice nice day.

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Ah yes, the totally normal thing to do: diagnose people with mental illness through their posts.

Funny little example here: x.com
image

I saw this game kinda capitalizing on the fact that they are so similar to another common property’s style. So there’s definitely attention to be grabbed by “stealing another project’s thunder” so to speak (not something I’d do, but hey, all’s fair in love and gamedev I guess as everyone fights for the spotlight).

Honestly these days, it’s like every game has the same art style anyhow and it’s been this way for 20 years.

“Style” often times comes down to interesting shader tricks, which is kinda cool. Inventive lighting, ambient particles. Well set up light bakes. I’m pretty proud of the style I’ve been developing on my own project, I’ve always tried to go for a “Dr. Suess” type world rather than trying to emulate other games. Simple but whimsical and saturated.


(It was important to keep the detailing simple as the game is playable on small phone screens)

If you try to work off of 2d images you’re going to get frustrated. I find it a lot more rewarding to work with cool shader stuff and just play with it and see what’s possible. Go with what works and you’ll end up with a better style than kinda trying to make something that looks good in concept.

Concepting is good for exploring ideas and shapes and… well… concepts. Like would a dward with a mohawk and a kilt anda rocket pack look silly? What proportions of each would make this kinda work? What combination of steam punk and apparel look most natural and fit into the world? Those are the sort of things that concept art helps with most. And often times we worry about it looking fantastic rather than getting a lot of it out there so we get the most ideas to choose from to find a working style.

There are so many studios that burn piles of money on concept artists that just make really pretty images that serve no actual purpose towards developing the visual style of the game, or develop a style that isn’t attaiable or do not elevate anything.

If you can come up with some interesting blends and Fresnel’s and colors settings and such to punch your graphics up a bit that can go a lot further than a “style” innate to your concept art. I think one overdone element of prototyping visuals in gaming is to pay someone great at making 2d stuff when we’d get a lot more bang for our time if we spent more time trying to make a single sphere look really cool with some unique shader.

You COULD go down the rabbit hole of trying to get a unique style with post processing, but you’ll likely end up with overblown effects and looking like a lot of other indie games that rely heavily on these. Post processing is important, but you don’t want to overdue it or use it as a crutch for style.

There are some competencies that are important in terms of developing your characters. Does your main playable character have that “IT” factor? A competent color scheme? Just enough “Pop” that they stand out but not annoyingly so.

Are the enemies you fight nice and meaty and chunky so the normal maps and texture details have room to pop? This is often overlooked, and why space marines have always had huge shoulder pads and boots. It’s not just a “style” for styles sake, it’s a technical decision that makes all the visual elements shine.

Are the artists putting the particle effects where they can reasonably be implemented with gameplay systems?

I’ve worked at art houses and on a few teams and i’ve managed my own artists for my current project and what i’ve learned is good concept art means next to nothing. For a “catfish” in my game I remember box selecting a cute cat head I think from puss in boots and pasting that square onto a 3d version of the firefox logo and asked a really good 3d artist to make it a “catfish” and they had it done up in a matter of an hour. It really comes down to core ability to create the assets, and when you have those you generally know how to tweak and tune things to make them your own.

To the point of this post… I guess you could steal 1 for 1 from other games… but why would you? If you have artists or the skills to capture the essence of other animations and visual styles? Why wouldn’t you indulge your own creative vision and put your own little spin on things?

I wouldn’t’ be able to go through the slog of just copying and redoing what’s been done already, and there’s so much room to try cool new things.

I’d say think about what’s unique your game and characters and what makes it unique and think about how you can emphasize those in animations or style or whatever. If the character has a unique nap sack or if they have a cool beard or skirt or whatever. Make it visually unique, then once it’s unique there, how does a unique animation come from that. It all kinda unfolds from itself.

TLDR I’d suggest try coming at this from a more technical angle. Where can you add a neat new particle effect? Or devise some nifty shader or animation mechanic that would breathe new style and life into your art! There are so many interesting technical areas of visuals that haven’t been explored.

Path of Exile 2 comes to mind of a game that’s doing some really interesting visual and animation changes that go a long way to creating a unique visual style. And there’s really nothing unique about their undead skeletons and bears and all that jazz.

P.S. yeah it’s kind of a sh*tty time on these forums. I’m hoping things get better after Unite. If there’s some cool announcements or even just a vibe shift, hopefully that can help turn things around here.

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The key to originality is- When you go to create something, never copy just one thing. Copy as many things as possible!

Also, don’t copy like-for-like. For example, if you want to design a cool-looking sword, don’t look at other swords for inspiration. Look at Jewelry or rare Orchids or types of exotic fish. Something like that.

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This line is grey and murky and trying to draw a clear delineation between the two is a fools errand. This kind of stuff is worked out by lawyers and courts on a case by case basis, sometimes with existing legal precedent.

Some companies are more likely to pursue legal proceedings than others.

Obviously there are clear cut cases where it’s fair dinkum fair use, and other times that are obvious asset theft, but not all the time.

Also not sure why you’re getting so defensive about having holes poked in your argument. I wouldn’t go presenting an argument if you aren’t prepared to have it pulled apart.

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I don’t really have a problem with disagreement, it’s just how he was doing it.

You know me, I’m not confrontational.