First off, I do NOT want this thread to turn into a fanboy flamefest, although fanboys are welcome if you stick to my specific questions.
I am primarily a programmer and new to the graphics side of things. I want to invest in a $1000 graphics tool to supplement my work with Unity. My requirements right now are pretty straightforward:
ability to tweak models I purchase from artists, such as add new animations, slight geometry/texture tweaking, etc.
ability to build partial or complete levels/scenes that can be imported into Unity
ability to model simple objects for use as props, level components, etc. in Unity
animation capabilites for cutscenes, demos, etc. (I could do this easily in Carrara, but it would be nice to keep it in the same tool I use for the other stuff)
Given these requirements and my budget, I have pretty much narrowed my choices down to Lightwave and Cinema 4D. I know I could do this stuff in Blender, for example, but I don’t mind spending a grand and honestly, if I’m going to invest the time to learn a tool extensively, I would rather it be something “commercial” with all the support that entails. Again, nothing against Blender, it is quite nice and I tinker with it from time to time, but it’s just not what I want to build my business on.
OK, so my specific questions are:
Lightwave looks to have more features than C4D Prime, which is the version I am looking at. Network rendering is something I could see a big use for. Also, C4D Prime doesn’t have the mographics tools in it, although I’m not sure that’s a problem for my use cases. So my question is, would both of these tools have the capabilities I need for my requirements listed above, or would I really need to upgrade to say C4D Broadcast to cover all my bases?
Lightwave uses a dongle, C4D doesn’t. Is that really a pain? One thing I would like to do is install the tool on my son’s computer also, so he can start learning modelling. This seems easy with Lightwave, because we could just move the dongle to his machine. I will be the primary user, probably 90% of the time, but I want that option. Is it a pain with Lightwave, and is it even possible with C4D?
It sounds like with C4D I need to purchase the service agreement to get updates and stuff. It kind of sounds like a good idea, because then I just pay my $250/yr and never have to worry about paying for upgrades again. Is that generally what everyone does? IS there anything equivalent with Lightwave? I’m trying to evaluate what I’m getting myself into as far as future upgrade and support costs.
I would also just like general comments on the applicability and useability of each tool for the goals I listed. Any quirks or bugs I need to be aware of?
I know that ultimately it will come down to which tool I feel most comfortable with, barring any show-stopping incompatibilites, which is why I am asking these questions.
I am a programmer too. And i got to say taht will become problems with C4D when it comes to texturing, Cinema 4D is not capable of making soft edges. So all uv seems will be hard edges and therefore double the vertices, if thats not a problem for you cinema is a nice tool for what you want to do.
I for myself was always lucky to work in companies who use the big packages like maya, max and xsi. I prefer maya because i like the interface for scripting and modelling.
Thanks for the input guys. I did a little more research and actually made a decision in favor of Lightwave. I figured I would post what I found here so that maybe it can help someone else.
I think either tool would have the basic features I needed, and I probably wouldn’t have to upgrade C4D anytime soon, if ever. All things being equal, Lightwave was just a more complete package for the price, and some of the things coming in Core are nice for game developers, like automatic sprite sheet generation.
Either package would have accomodated my needs as far as licensing. For Lightwave, I can install it on as many machines as I want and just move the dongle around. That works perfect for me, provided the dongle isn’t a hassle (hopefully there aren’t driver problems and stuff). With C4D, I verified with their sales dept. that you can install it on 2 computers (as long as only 1 is in use at a time) IF you purchase the MSA. That’s one of the perks of their MSA, otherwise you are limited to a single install legally - I have no idea how active they are in enforcing that, but I’m not looking to bend the rules anyway.
There is no equivalent to the MSA for Lightwave. What they are doing with the Core pre-order special is lock in the upgrade rate at a discount for the next 5 upgrades. At current prices, assuming each package upgrades every year, that gives the TCO over 5 years advantage to C4D. But, that also assumes that a) Maxon doesn’t raise their MSA prices, and b) I am able to stick with Prime and not have to upgrade to a more expensive package.
Based on the couple of comments in this thread, and what I’ve read elsewhere, it seems like both tools are equally well suited for use with Unity. Both tools have their quirks, but there are plenty of people using them in a Unity pipeline and I don’t forsee any major problems either way.
A few other factors that played into my decision:
One of the big features of C4D is 3D Paint, which as far as I can tell is missing from Lightwave (it might be buried in there somewhere, so I apologize if I missed it). However, I already own 3D Coat, which from everything I’ve seen is an excellent supplement to Lightwave. So rather than pay for functionality I already have, I can get some more features I would like to have with Lightwave (like network rendering, physics, hair, etc.)
I really like the fact that with Lightwave I get the current version plus the Core upgrade. This was a big factor for me, because I can use a proven pipeline now and play around with Core when it comes out (or the betas) but not be stuck if I hit some incompatibilities or bugs (very likely in such a major new release). This was a major failing on Maxon’s part - as a new user, the only option I have is to purchase R12 (they flat out said R11.5 is no longer for sale), and there are already some known issues with Unity. And even though they are giving upgraders a dual license to use both R11.5 and R12, no such option exists for new users.
Stability played a factor in my decision. While evaluating both products, I never crashed Lightwave even once. C4D R12 on the other hand crashes on exit about half the time I end the program, and whenever it crashes it causes Windows to run a chkdsk on boot on that drive. To be fair, I would be surprised if LW Core doesn’t have some stability problems when it ships - that’s just unfortunately to be expected with new software. But the difference is, I have the option to use LW 9.6 until the problems are fixed, whereas with C4D I don’t get that option.
This is just my subjective observation, but Newtek and Maxon seem to be headed in different directions. I think Maxon has made a mistake in the way they are packaging R12. The modular system worked great, but now they are going for a pure marketing-driven approach, always leaving out a few desirable features in each version to entice you to upgrade to the next version. If you don’t need 90% of the other stuff in that version, then that’s a bad deal, so you either do without or go for a less cost effective approach and upgrade. The sales guy also spent half the time I was on the phone with him trying to talk me into upgrading to Studio, even though I explained to him my usage requirements and budget up front. And honestly, if I was going to be spending $3500 on the software, I would probably be looking at one of the big dogs, warts and all, just for compatibility reasons.
Newtek, OTOH, just seems to be friendlier towards small developers. The promotion they are running right now on LW Core is a heck of a deal, and there are a lot of features in there that are really game-friendly. Personally, I just like going with a company that seems to be embracing game developers rather than trying to be the next Autodesk. That’s just my impression - take with 100 grains of salt.
I was initially turned off by the LW interface. When I first ran it, I felt like I was running some 20 year old CAD program, vs. the slick UI of C4D. I’m sure glad I gave LW a second look, because once I got past that first impression, I can see the benefits now. For one, I noticed that in C4D, I always felt cramped for screen space because so much space was taken up by the menus and toolbars. LW is more minimalistic, but as you learn the UI (still a long way to go there) you can see it has advantages. Kind of like Blender in that respect - one of it’s initial turnoffs is actually one of its best features.
I looked briefly at Modo, but it didn’t make the final cut for a few reasons. I don’t know what the business reason is, but charging for a demo download is just cheesy. To get good animation capabilities, I would need to supplement it - I’ve heard good things about the Modo-Messiah-Unity pipeline, but that just puts it out of my budget.
Anyway, those are the reasons I went with LW. I want to stress that these are based on what personally works for me best - your mileage may vary greatly. In the end, they are both excellent programs (and Modo too), and I’m sure I would have been happy with either one, but LW was just a little more perfect fit for my needs.
You can get a demo of modo without paying for it. The paid version comes with the spotlight video tutorial which cost 29.95 by itself so that is the reason for the paid version of the modo demo.
Your point about animation is somewhat true. You can do basic animation in modo but if you want a more robust set of animation tools for character animation, you will need bother tool like messiah.
Like I said, I’ve got no disrespect for Modo, and in fact have heard very good things about it. Also, there is someone on here who has a blog where they have documented their entire workflow building a game using Modo - what an invaluable resource!
For me it was mainly the fact that once you add Messiah, it put it way out of my current price range. Also, I’m just starting out and would rather focus on learning 1 main tool. Once I get comfortable with Lightwave, I’m sure it will be easier to pick up other tools, so hey, after I sell that first game or two, maybe I’ll add Modo to my toolbelt.
Well, now I really have a dilema. After using Lightwave for a few days and also seeing how much longer it’s really going to be before all the Core stuff starts coming out (and being usable), I got cold feet and asked them to return it. So I need to decide in the next couple of days if I will keep Lightwave, or return it for something else. The thing is, I know IN THEORY, Lightwave can do all the stuff I need, because I’ve seen videos of people doing it. But I am totally intimidated by the interface once I try to get beyond just simple modeling. I’m starting to wonder if I will ever learn enough to do scene layout and animation in a reasonable fashion without quitting my day job and studying it 24/7.
I’ve also realized I’m probably not going to find everything I want in a single $1000 tool, so if need be I can expand my budget to buy 2 of these tools. I’ve got several options to consider:
Modo + C4D Prime: Modo looks great for modeling and level building, although I wasn’t able to just
jump in and start using it right away like C4D. I’ll definitely have to do some training on it, but I guess that’s because it’s more powerful as a modeler (although I’m really not to the level where I can tell the difference). C4D Prime looks good for modeling, animation, cut scenes, etc. I’ve probably spent more time doing C4D tutorials and have picked it up more easily than anything. Plus I was able to load many of my 3DRT models I bought into C4D and they just worked, animations and all! I don’t like the fact it doesn’t have network rendering, which would be really handy for cut scenes, and it doesn’t have MoGraph, which everyone raves about, but I’m not sure I really need it for what I want to do.
C4D Broadcast now, buy modo later: This gives me the few features missing in Prime that would be nice, and it’s on sale right now which is really tempting. Also only having to learn 1 tool right now is very tempting, and although people complain about C4D’s modeler, I haven’t really had any problems with it, but I’m probably too inexperienced to know any better.
Stick it out with Lightwave for the long haul, but complement it with C4D or Modo to get more productive now.
I’m kind of leaning towards getting C4D now and Modo later, possibly after 501 comes out. That way I only have to focus on getting productive with 1 tool, and after I do that I will have a better idea whether or not Modo would be a big improvement for me in the modeling area. So then the question is - Prime or Broadcast? Can anyone tell me what exactly is so cool about MoGraph, and how exactly I would use it in the work I need to do? It’s kind of hard to justify the extra cost for network rendering alone, but if MoGraph is something that would be truely useful, that changes the equation.
And if you think I’m being foolish in ditching Lightwave, I’m open to hearing arguments in its favor as well.
EDIT - after looking at the Maxon site, it appears that Visualize would be a more useful upgrade than Broadcast. With their sale, that would put me right at $2k, which means I definitely wouldn’t be looking at Modo for 6 months or so. Still, that seems like something that could do everything I need. Thoughts?
