Perpetual Tutorial, the MMO

News & General Discussion
1

First, I am not making an MMO. Also, while this isn’t specifically about Unity, I do (in the distant future) plan to create an MMO with Unity, so I’m interested to hear peoples’ thoughts on this.

I’ve played my fair share of MMOs in my day; most recently SWTOR, but they all end up feeling the same to me; like the worlds longest tutorial. You get a message that tells you to go somewhere and do something. You do this, you get a pat on the back, then you’re told to go do something else. Ad infinitum.

I do all this, and somewhere in the back of my mind, I keep playing because I’m waiting for this tutorial to end in the hopes that I’ll eventually get to play the game. Maybe explore this huge world for a bit. Perhaps even make a decision or two of my own. Alas, this never happens, and typically, the only decision I get to make is to not play the game anymore.

I know there’s a difference between “Themepark” and “Sandbox” MMOs. I’m not looking to dispute their definitions (we’ve all seen those posts a hundred times), but is this really all MMOs have to offer?

I find it hard to believe, especially considering that writing all those “quests” to keep me busy for months has to consume a healthy portion of the development time. Wouldn’t the developers prefer to just work on adding more things you CAN do, than writing endless scripts and dialogues? And wouldn’t players prefer to have the freedom to make their experience their own?

Ok, obviously you know my stance on this. I loved games like Ultima Online (just an open world with lots to do and lots to explore). What are your thoughts? Is there a market for an open ended MMO in this industry? Or do players need the hand-holding that games like SWTOR, WoW and others provide?

2

It’s actually really quick to write extra quests. There’d be a template somewhere where the quest writer changes out some text and drops in some new targets - I’d be surprised if it takes more than a few minutes at the base level. So there’s a relatively small number of things to do, and a stonkingly huge number of permutations in which to do them.

On the other hand, it takes a lot of effort to actually give people different activities to perform, especially considering that it needs to work for everyone despite the fact that everyone’s character is potentially different.

I’ve never tried to design an MMO, but the main constraint as I see it is that the game state can not be changed in any significant way because it has to be valid for all players. In a single player or small group RPG you can burn down a town, build a bridge, kill characters or introduce new ones, change out one type of enemy for another, change alliances, so on and so forth, because all players experience all of the changes more or less in sync. In an MMO you can’t really do those things because there are thousands of players who may all require slightly different game states. Imagine a bunch of players need to go into a town and trade with a particular character, but another group of players have just done a quest where the town gets destroyed and that character killed… How do you reconcile those things?

Guild Wars 2, which I’m playing at the moment and enjoying a lot, has a pretty good crack at solving this and, of the few MMOs I’ve played, does the best job at it with its three different types of quests, each designed around different styles of play and each showing off different aspects of the game (area-based event cycles are cooperative and tie in to the game’s overall story arc and have some transient impact on the world, personal story quests present a story and take you to new parts of the world, and “heart quests” are your typical gopher or grind type quests each focussing on a particular place or group of characters and showing it off). But the state changes are still fairly limited in scope and, necessarily, fairly limited in time. The game gives you plenty to do, but it’s still mostly variations on the same things. It’s presented incredibly well and the things you do are mostly a lot of fun, but it still has to deal with the same constraints as any other MMO.

3

Frankly, what you want looks more like real life than a game. You can try Second Life, but i have a feeling that it you will be disappointed again.
MMO’s use grinding/farming recipe because is what keeps people inside. After the player consume the story and explore all the aspects of the game, there is not much to motivate him to stay (and pay) other than grinding. Not even pvp cant motivate all the players and pvp is also a form of grinding.

Ultimately games (any game) are controlled and limited systems/environments/simulations. And such, there is not much room for exploring and surprises (and btw if such a system start to exhibit surprises you can bet your life that that is a bug).

4

Hmmm… highly debatable. It’s at the very least a matter of perception. When I play PvP it’s not for the character/level advancement, it’s for the competitive gameplay, exactly like it is when I play Battlefield or Quake or whatnot. It’s not for the loot drops or the XP, which is what I see grinding as being for. It’s also not mostly brainless, which I also associate with grinding.

5

What about a perma-death game in which you can build and destroy everything you want?

6

That’s a fairly accurate assessment, and you’re right, I played Second Life and was not impressed. But why does it have to be one of those two extremes?

I think this mostly comes from frustration at SWTOR. Star Wars has such an amazing backdrop; countless worlds and alien races, tons of different skills and classes, laser toting soldiers, magic wielding knights with the coolest weapons ever created, androids, secret orders, space battles, bounty hunters, royalty (yet somehow a republic government), alien gangsters, etc, etc, etc. Why can’t I experience my “second life” in THAT universe?

I’m not saying I want to be able to blow up planets or raze cities to the ground. Sometimes, I just want to hang out with friends.

Back in my Runescape days, I loved hanging out with my friends chatting and raising skills by fishing and cooking around a campfire, discussing the game’s different locations, spells, etc.

The Matrix Online had some very cool raves at the in-game dance clubs with the live broadcast from the player-run “Radio Free Zion” station.

Now, I also do like PvP gaming. I like the PvP arenas in SWTOR, and I always play on PvP servers. I’ve actually had more fun playing MAG (Multiplayer FPS with up to 256 players per match) than I’ve ever had in an MMO.

You spend all this time and money creating a massive universe for people, then you put them on rails? Why? I mean, really, it could be as simple as; just don’t give me another quest right away. Let me explore and find it myself. But no, if I’m not “questing” then I’m not playing the game.

7

Maybe games could focus more on crafting, puzzles and management mechanics, and less on quests, story and monsters.

8

But there’s nothing stopping you from ignoring the quest and just doing your own thing if that’s what you want. Just because there’s a quest in your log doesn’t mean it’s the one and only thing you must doggedly and single mindedly follow until completion.

Some people need a big arrow telling them where to go all the time, and for those people the designers make sure that there’s always a quest to follow.

As for just hanging out with friends, how do games stop you doing that? If you want it to be a giant chat client on steroids with a dress up theme, don’t they all do that just fine?

9

Except that there’s nothing to do if you’re not questing. Heck, I’d be thrilled if they threw in a little mini-game, like the card games in the Final Fantasy games.

Ironically, if you were to focus on making more to do, and less scripted quests, the people who need that big arrow would complain that there was nothing to do.

That would definitely be a good start. It seems like every MMO puts “crafting” as one of their selling points, yet it always seems to be an afterthought. Crafting is typically a dull assembling of ingredients to create items that are less valuable than items you’ll find from looting (which I think is completely backwards).

Any kind of management would be great. Even if its player housing, and I get to decorate my little space. Of course, the one game that does any kind of “management” is EVE and they take it to yet another extreme.

10

World of Warcraft does this. It allows players to have different states. I think. For example, my brother completed a quest (before me) that made the town free of monsters. My town was still burning down, people dying, and monsters roaming it. If I remember correctly, I couldn’t see him, just his dot on the minimap lol.

11

No. At best, that would be a temporary, instanced location, which is really just a single player spinoff that has no impact on the game.

That’s another issue I have with MMOs. I was supposed to destroy some computer terminals, but some other people were there and destroyed them first… so I sat there until they rematerialized so I could destroy them.

But that’s really a petty, non-issue. However, “teaming up” with people, only to follow them around, performing the same tasks I did the day before really does just remind you that you’re little more than an insignificant errand boy.

12

Instanced, yes. But it does last for the rest of ever.

Heh, the sit and wait game. Fun stuff. I saw somebody kill a thing I had to kill once, and had to wait for like an hour before it revived. Believe it or not, 5 minutes later I did another quest just so I could do that one.

Heh. Agreed. Again.

13

I agree. And I’m personally done with mmos, for the exact reason you mention as “Perpetual Tutorial”, Khan.

  • It’s been 6 years (since the end of WoW : TBC actually) that I’m waiting for a mmo studio to stop thinking that the playerbase do have an IQ of 20.
  • mmo communities are completely gear centric. Fight Club’s Tyler Durden manifesto should have added “You are not your mmo character gear”.
  • 10+ big mmos later (incuding xpacs), I’m still waiting for one that will offer combat mechanics that are complex enough not be bored after 100 fights.

This last one is what really drives me away, though.
As a dev, I don’t understand how it’s not taken more into account, for a general gamedesign that is based around fights, and moreover thousands of fights.
As a gamer, I don’t understand what is so hard to realize for mmo devs how most gamers are playing videogames for 10 to 20 years (average age being 30). I don’t understand how they are still limiting combats to one or two rotations of the same 5-6 skills, and voilà. Especially in a genre that is supposed to keep us playing for hours, weeks, monthes, years. If we have been playing VG for such a long time (or even 5-10 years), then we know the basics. We know that we have to place debuffs on a target before ramping up direct damage. We know that we have to push that 2 min CD protection skill before a big attack. We know that we have to refresh our powerup every 30 seconds. We’ve been pushing those goddamn buttons for 10 fucking years, goddamn it. So why keep serving us the same mechanics model for ages ?

Archetypes : Sneaky rogue is sneaky backstabber, furious warrior is furious one-hit smasher, glittery caster is all glittering spells, …
Combat mechanics : Load self-protections, place weakeners on target, unload 2-3 damage/heal skills. Rinse. REPEAT.
Customizations : chose if you want to automatize the self-protection, the weakener or the damaging. Or to extend duration of each one. wow amazing gameplay evolution !

This is the biggest mistake all studios are making, imho. And this is why most new mmos do fail, I’m pretty sure. Lack of combat mechanics diversity.
MMOs are based around grinding, in the endgame, it’s inevitable (unless the studio can spit out new content every week). Constantly refreshed combat mechanics during a single fight, is what helps bearing any grind. You could have to grind the same pack of enemies for hours, if your fights are never the same, you wouldn’t notice you’re grinding. This pack would be just like a chess board, would be just an excuse for you to have fun with the metagame.
And as a matter of fact, most players are bored at endgame, after nearly one month. Aka when they start grinding …

It’s kind of hard to understand that for devs, because 90% of players feedback and direct interest is about gear and big critical numbers on their screen.
The latest Q&A with ArenaNet’s Design Director once again proved it. The hamster wheel. Grind gear to access to new gear grinding levels. Which is ironic … because this very Q&A was created to answer a huge complain about the introduction of said hamster wheel in GW2 … And yet people are still obsessive with gear in their questions to devs …
I don’t understand why mmo community is not realizing the importance of combat mechanics diversity in a mmo longevity … meh.

That’s exactly how you spelled it, Khan, it’s really like that : it’s like each mmo studio wants to target an audience who never played mmos, or even videogames at all. A perpetual tutorial.
You’re a newcomer ? Come on into our shiny new world full of glitter ! Take a sit and enjoy the auto-ride, refreshments available at the gate !
You’re a veteran ? What, you already know the ride ? You want a real thrill without security seatbelts ? Oh man, sorry, we don’t have anything for you, there were too many people scared by these attractions.

/rant

(I’m ranting because it’s been half a dozen new shiny mmos claiming they would renew the genre, full of promises and PR stunts, but they all stopped at 30%)
(well except ArenaNet, which stopped at 80% :slight_smile: )

D’oh :slight_smile:

14

I think it would be interesting if the player is always spawned at a random location in the world, almost naked and without tutorials. After the player has explored for a while, a screen appears offering the tutorial mode (“I’m feeling lost” / “Let me explore some more”). Also there should be a single player mode. Even if the game is an MMO, you should be able to play alone and affect your own copy of the world. You could still invite your friends to play in your copy of the world. Is people actually interested in seen an overcrowded game? Maybe having overly crowded games just make them real in the wrong way. Maybe it’s the ambition of game designers that actually turned into bad design, something that we are realizing until now that technology is capable of taking us to this extreme. In such case it would be much easier and less expensive to create and maintaing MMOs than it seems. And the idea of making the game too simple for the player might also be bad design too.

In my case I’m developing a kit to implement advanced mechanics for RPGs. I’m taking mini-games like Elder Scrolls/Fallout’s lockpicking, and making them more complex by adding more parts to the lock and more tools to unlock them. I’m also interested in taking some ideas of 4X games into this toolkit. That way people can define their own quests.

15

Just a quick note to this; all of the missions/quests in SWTOR are voice acted. This means, not only did they have to write up the dialogue for each quest, they also had to pay a ton of money to record those lines (something like 250,000 lines of dialogue iirc). So having a quest template, while handy, would be moot for games like this.

Personally, I think MMOs are incredibly fertile ground to evolve the concept of procedural content. For one, the biggest strength of procedural content is that it offers endless replayability; one of the cornerstones of MMOs. Also, its content that reacts to different variables and game states, which means the more people you throw at it, the more versatility it would produce.

Obviously, it would be a daunting task to throw something that volatile into something as exposed and open-ended as an MMO, but I think its the best direction for them.

16

No, that’s not how WoW and GW2 phasing works. They basically create a bubble around areas in the game world that can have multiple states, and depending on your state in that area, you will only be able to see and communicate (except via guild/private/group chat) with people in the same state as you in that area, and it’s usually a permanent thing.

17

The problem with procedural content is that you are limited with a given set of parts that match together. Basically you are just scrambling pieces of terrain, buildings, characters, dialogs, etc. After playing a few times the player finds out that the game is always the same, just things are placed in different positions. And the player will focus on finding where did the useful pieces fell, and finally the game will become repetitive. If you go to the extreme of procedural generation, the world will become too weird for the player to understand.

That’s why I think crafting, puzzles and management are the best way to auto-generate quests, since those quest are invented by the player himself, the game just allows the conditions and the challenges for those quests to appear.

18

Precisely (imo).
This is at least how Star Wars Galaxies felt in the end to me. Some player-created places were either clusterfucks, either just a patchwork of the same things you saw in the last zone, but at different positions.

19

No it wouldn’t. Getting someone to record 10 minutes of audio per quest isn’t a big deal compared to getting people to spend hours or days writing custom functionality per quest plus the exponentially increased QA time which it would lead to.

My experience is quite different to that, though as I think I said, my experience is mostly limited to Guild Wars (2). But, it does have plenty of mini-game type things, a reasonably extensive crafting system, resource collection (for the crafting), it strongly encourages exploration outside of quests, there are platformer-style jumping puzzles (none are compulsory, many are challenging), and two of the three types of quests deliberately avoid presenting themselves as per a traditional MMO.

Plus, a fair few of the quests do have their own specific mechanics, generally implemented as skills which are only available to that quest or by transforming the player into something else for the duration.

Oh yeah, and there’s also a lot of “hidden” stuff that you get rewarded for, which encourages you to just play around. For instance, after climbing to the top of a structure once I found a diving suit, which I then put on and jumped off the structure into an adjacent lake, for which I was rewarded for having found “1/1 diving spots”. In another area I got an achievement for completing a particularly difficult jumping puzzle. There are some pretty significant fights which are hidden, too.

Guild Wars 2 is renowned somewhat for being different to traditional MMOs and that was a part of its design philosophy, so perhaps I just happen to play the one example that manages to avoid a lot of the common flaws? My limited experience with other MMOs tells me that that’s probably the case, as I got bored with WoW in less than a week and everything else I’ve played has seemed to be a poor knock-off of or less refined predecessor to that.

20

This , i’m surprised MMOs make any money given the massive amounts of QA cost just to test