Programming Logic Versus Animation Action

Seeing that Unity is a programmer’s tool, I have come to realize that most users of the software think of everything in terms of programming logic, whatever be their language of choice. They have acquired a form of tunnelvision which might prove to be a hindrance to development of actual 3D games that, more independent of programming logic, are entertaining, none the less.

Specifically, what I mean is that most things that pertain to the gaming experience are primarily content based in their appeal, and even in their function. How a character moves, how a prop moves, how the background interplays with both of them, all are a product of the artist and not the programmer - or, at least, they should be.

How things behave in a game can be a greater product of the efforts of the artist and animator than those of the programmer. I think, too many things have been assigned to the skills of the programmer.

Think about it a little. My premise is that behaviours of characters and objects are mostly the result of skillful animation produced by artists and not by programmers. Even the plethora of possible actions and reactions are largely dependent on the skills and imagination of the artist, not the programmer. So, I put forth, that games should mainly be the responsibility of artists - perhaps 80 to 90 percent of all work needed for a game should fall into the camp of “artist’s responsibility”.

Example: If character A collides with object B, either animation 1a is executed, animation 1b, or any other number of randomly chosen animations might occur if certain conditions are met. Now, the animator and artist must physically produce the material to be exhibited, should these conditions be met. The programmer, or programming logic only needs to define the coding phrases that embody these conditions - if, then, else and while.

The point of all this is that a game making environment really should be the territory of the artist and not the programmer - tailored to the artist rather than the programmer. But it is not. Nearly every game making environment that I can think of forces the artist and animator to become a programmer to make basic things work. Or else he is forced to collaborate to make his ideas tangible.

If programmers could create entertaining and engaging games, they simple would do it, alone - but most cannot, since they lack the creative and graphic and imaginative skills of the artist.

But, it seems that, in the environment of game creation, artists are the universal “second class citizen”. I think this is evidenced by the focus of game making software - most are simply part of a “programmer’s toolkit”.

I really think it is time that game making software becomes part of an artist’s toolkit, since 80 to 90 percent of the content of any game comes from the hands of the artist and not the programmer.

Why not produce tools that every non-programming artist is at home using?

The only game making environment that has traces of these virtues, (and it is strictly 2D), is Multimedia Fusion, by ClickTeam. And, it is amazing what artists, working alone, have been able to achieve with this software. I only use this concrete reference to existing software to make a concrete point, not for advertising purposes.

And, it amazes me that this simple post will become heatedly apposed and met with responses like - “just get tough, bite the bullet and learn to program in either C# or Javascript, like I did.”

Seriously, those of you who have bitten the bullet and learned to program and who have actually spent more time acquiring graphic and animation skills than programming skills, throughout the length of your career, show me what you have accomplished - working alone.

From everything that I have read on these forums, it is virtually impossible for one person to produce any kind of substantial game working alone. Why - because the programming tasks are so overwhelmingly complex and time consuming that they render the task impossible for one person - that’s why.

I don’t think this necessarily need be the case, nor should we surrender to this being the case. Call me an idiotic optimist, if you will.

I think we can do better.

Greg Smith

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Well, no. Game design isn’t the domain of the artist or programmer…it’s the domain of the game designer. Just because you can make stuff look cool doesn’t mean you can make anything actually fun to play. Just because you can program whiz-bang neat stuff doesn’t mean you can actually make anything actually fun to play.

There have been quite a few games over the years made primarily or exclusively by one person. Over time that decreased as game complexity rose, but thanks to Unity and other engines, there are more one-person “teams” again, because all the hard stuff is done for you. With some of my projects, I spent at least as much time creating art assets as I did programming.

As someone who does both art and programming, I guarantee that your estimate that “80-90%” of a game’s content is from the artist is quite wrong. Probably 100% of what you see on the screen was made by an artist, sure. That’s not what the actual content is, though, which is what you do during a game, and there’s no reason at all than an artist should be more able at that than anyone else. Frankly, I think you need to let go of your bitterness toward programming.

–Eric

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Eric:

It’s not bitterness, its the realization that time does not permit me to master both disciplines in my lifetime.

Not me, anyway. Maybe there are a whole slough of wizkids that can master both. I don’t think so.

You must be extremely gifted to have gotten a firm handle on both the programming arts and the graphic arts.

I’d like to see your single handed efforts.

Greg Smith

OK, take a look. I’m not supremely gifted by any means. “Moderately talented” is as far as I’d go. I was a graphic designer for nine years, with some self-taught programming mixed in there. If there’s a difference between me and any of the other many moderately talented people out there, it’s that I’m more stubborn than usual and I never give up on a problem until it’s solved.

–Eric

arghh…must…not…feed…troll…head explodes

Greg, the combination of strong convictions and willful ignorance you exhibit makes me suspect you work for the government.

Certainly, “we can do better”. Especially you. If you’re convinced you can’t succeed with Unity, fine, but must you discourage others as well? As I said in the previous thread you made on the very same topic, and Eric said above, all that you really need is some persistence. I don’t know how you can read these forums and conclude that individuals can’t do it.

Somebody help me out here, with the relevant quotation I’ve heard. Something like “if only the very best masters did it, there would be a lot less good stuff being made”.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a master. You can still create worthwhile things. I’m not a master of any of the things I do, but I get stuff done just by plugging away, and I get better at everything by doing so, via the practice. There are a lot of games that would still be near impossible to make, all by yourself, given the current state of technology, and a human lifespan, but that’s not the majority of them, and they’ll just get easier to make, as technology and tools evolve. If you’re not going to be alive that long, then make something good that is not so complex!

Anyway, I’m mainly a musician, so I’ve been taking classes to improve my art skills, so that my games will hopefully reflect some level of artistic competence :wink:, but although the world of programming, even in Unity, is huge, I’ve found that by taking it one step at a time, and asking relevant questions, which tend to get answered around here, programming is quite learnable, and just becomes an extension of all the other artistic stuff I do.

Some things are still a pain, like coding a GUI in Unity, and bringing in bitmaps, versus designing it visually with vector art in Flash. I can’t imagine that will last forever. Things are moving in the direction you want them to: look at Unity 2.5’s collision-based placement feature. To me, that is huge! People are constructed to place things by hand, computers are made to deal with numbers - it’s a beautiful marriage. But as I said in the other thread, you were born too early. Complaining about it isn’t going to help. Coding things yourself is going to take longer, for many things, than it would if better tools were already in existence, but there will never be an end to the evolution of tools, as people are always going to want to make things that have not been made before. Coding is the way you make your own tools, when we’re talking about Unity games.

Coding is art is music is creation. Get out of your negative mindset and learn how to make something.

Node based programming is the way to go nowadays. Cryengine and Unreal engine have a node based development environment. Angry Ant is working on one as we speak. It will make my life easier when it gets here. :smile:

I’m an artist by trade, and programming is HAAAARD. I’m learning little by little as I go, but the syntax keeps throwing me off! I mean hell, making a car turn it’s wheels properly has me stumped. Learning both is doable it seems, but still…people build with their hands, and computers build with numbers (as Jesse said).

Greg, how does Fusion do the programming side anyway?

Polytropol, don’t be mean.

I believe the OP is confusing the roles and responsibilities when it comes to game development.

A programmer creates the framework, the rules, for the world in which the game takes place. That is the role of the programmer.

The artist fills that world with content.

Neither one of these, either alone, or even together, make a game. You can make a simulation…a scene, but not a game. And you don’t need graphics for a game. Great titles, including the birth of the MMO genre were made without graphics…just good game design.

As a programmer, I don’t feel like Unity is a “programmer’s toolbox.” I don’t feel like anything in Unity gives me a programming edge. I use Unitron for my scripting, which is just like Notepad on Windows. Nothing in Unity is aiding me as a programmer.

Nor does it aid me as an artist because I need models, and while Unity helps do lighting and terrain, I need something like Blender or 3DS to make a model, or Photoshop to make a texture. Unity is not an Artist’s toolbox either.

Unity is for game development, utilized to bring assets (both programming and artistic efforts) into one place. Game designers, I believe, are for who Unity is provided. They can take all the pieces and put a game together. Take the assets, the scripts, etc and make a game. It doesn’t code it for you, nor does it create models for you.

While I understand what you want an automated programmer, a simple, easy way to put the framework into a game, I believe your best course of action would be to simply team up with someone. Find someone to write the scripts you need for your games.

If you want to stay solo, and accept the limitations of an automated programming system, then your games will be limited. Perhaps this won’t be an issue for a couple of games, but eventually you’re going to want to do Task A, and the automated system won’t understand your request. This is why it helps to either learn, or join forces with, someone who understands coding.

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Theinfomercial:

I have to agree, modular programming is coming and it should already be here, in my opinion. And, it will make it possible for there to be a thing like an “artist’s game-making toolbox”.

Fusion uses a codeless system of programming utilising tables and “property” forms for creating interactions and logic. It is quite simple, yet very powerful and, I might add, brilliantly thought of. Yes, it has limitations, as all modular systems must have. The limitations that exist do not put a stranglehold on creativity, however.

But, I don’t think programmatic limitations are limiting in every way. In fact they help creativity by making the artist and designer work within bounds. The possibilities are still limitless, even within a framework that has boundaries.

All great art has been produced within a framework that has finite boundaries - in medium, in size, in style and even in theme. When all the boundaries are taken away the quality invariably suffers.

Greg Smith

It seems most programmers are of the mind that no limitation means limitless power - and, oh!, do they like that notion.

edit: bit my fn tongue! greg - yeah it’s easy to take solace in others who won’t fight.

So, to sum up: some kind of graphical programming is desirable, and sure it has all kinds of limitations and you can’t really do what you want with it, but this is a good thing, because that makes it more…arty. In the same sense that books would be more meaningful and deep if only we would limit authors to 100 different words, because more limitations make them more artistic, and just being able to write whatever they want using any old words is clearly plebeian.

–Eric

To me the humble 3D Artist is a loose term. Its like saying your a Doctor.

if you want to go it alone or work in a small team, I think its better to see oneself as a 3D Developer. You need to have technical skill with art skill. The 3D Developer is the optimum one man band and Unity is a great tool for him/her.

Of course if you have the resources to specialize then you can have all sorts on a team (Character Designers, AI Programmers, Interaction Designers, Project Managers and the list goes on)

These days I think specializing in a 3D Art discipline is quite risky.

My 2p
Geoff

Edit: I should change my Sig :smile:

Like it? I LOVE IT! Muwhahhhahaahah! So you have discovered our little conspiracy, eh Mr Smith? It will do you no good. fires up giant laser

Seriously, all games are software: a set of codified rules. If you want to make something interesting, sooner or later you (or somebody) has got to roll up the sleeves and work out what those rules are, and the most elegant way to express them will always be well-written code.

I’m much more comfortable doing art than coding, but after some initial struggles, I’m finding the programming can be very rewarding too. And it’s important (for me at least) to be able to do it from soup to nuts, because I don’t want to be dependent on others to execute my ideas. Collaboration is great, but creative vision is an individual thing. Writing a novel is, I think, an apt comparison to virtual World Building, and it’s extremely hard to make a great novel by committee. But creative vision + art skill + code skill + Unity = LIMITLESS POWER! Muwahahahaahahah!

This whole thread reminds me of something I wrote back in 2005 (Shortly after I discovered Unity).

[b]The evolution of the Gaming Industry and Art[/b]

Casual game development attracts creative, artistic people. Tools like Unity enable these types of people. It allows them to focus more on their creativity and less on the machine's technicalities. Unity totally excites me, it gives me a sense of freedom and a new view of the Gaming Industry.

Some may say that the gaming industry is becoming similar to the movie industry, and I agree. Big budgets and marketing made to appeal to the masses. That's OK... let the gaming industry grow and become movie-like because I think the casual gaming market will split off and evolve into a something different. I'll even be as bold as to say A New Art Form.

I had an interesting thought this morning... as time passes and even better tools (like Unity 2.0 maybe) come along that allow creative people the ability to more easily create computer games, game developers will becoming more like authors and/or painters. For instance, anyone can operate a typewriter, learn to use a word processor, or spread paint with a brush - the difference between 'normal' people and artists is talent.

What do you think?

by Randy Edmonds, Dec.2005

That’s an interesting comparison, but I believe the typewriter analogy is slightly deeper.

Unity is the typewriter. To operate a typewriter, all you have to do is press buttons. To operate Unity all you need to do is drag stuff (scripts to objects, objects to scene).

“Talent”, as you say, is not the only thing which will allow you to write a great piece of work. Talent alone may make something ‘artsy’, but it won’t make a novel.

There are two independent elements. The first is the comprehension and understanding of a language. The grammatical structure. The rules you have to follow to make a coherent sentence. Language comprehension, for this example, is the same as programming language comprehension.

But this is not solely what you need. Someone who knows English, but has no creative spark might as well just be writting Standard Operation manuals and dictionaries. Grammatically correct, but boring and dull.

This is where art comes into play. Art fills in with content. It is expression. Using the language (English), with the tool (typewriter), and an idea, a concept (talent), you can make something great.

Using the language (C#/JS) with the tool (Unity) and assets (art) you can make something great.

You can say a bunch of pretty words, but without the rules of the language they will lack structure and grammar and will just be gibberish and lack the ability to actually convey an idea to anyone.

This whole thread reminds me of a suspiciously similar thread back in 2006 :wink:

Looking forward to the 2012 version,
Ethan

It reminds me more of a thread I found from back in 2005.

http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=5894

I’m not so looking forward to the 2012 version.

As you know, we’ll have other things to worry about: Return of Old Ones, Magnetic Reversal, Cthonic Dimensional Breach, Cosmic Mind-Eating Squid-Dragons, etc… I’m doing my part to get ready.

A game making environment or tool does not need to be exclusive of pure coding, and I’m not saying that it should be.

Blender has a modular system of producing game logic and it has a gateway to much more complex functionality with Python. Seems to work fine.

We have, today, all sorts of powerful compilers that take much of the tedium and repetition and wasted time out of producing many “common” applications that feature windows and forms and spreadsheet kinds of things. What we don’t have is a game code compiler that helps with all of those repetitive and tedious coding tasks that game developers are always reproducing - over and over and over and over again.

These common functions are just that - everyday things like first person camera navigation, 3rd person camera navigation, (which Unity helps with), collision detection, rotational movement over time, animation triggers, path following, inventory, scores, UI components and many other things that developers keep having to recreate.

This is how a modular approach can help to greatly reduce the number of man hours required to produce a game. And new modules with new functions can be a pursuit of profit for those who have advanced coding skills.

Game components such as these really could be embodied in something much simpler than raw code and representative of their function, being much easier for the developer to use.

Greg Smith

Computer programming is an art.
Sure, it may be hard to learn… so is a piano.

Knuth: Computer Programming as an Art
by Donald Knuth
Read it here… Knuth: Computer Programming as an Art

To summarize: We have seen that computer programming is an art, because it applies accumulated knowledge to the world, because it requires skill and ingenuity, and especially because it produces objects of beauty. A programmer who subconsciously views himself as an artist will enjoy what he does and will do it better. Therefore we can be glad that people who lecture at computer conferences speak about the state of the Art.

Art and Computer Programming
by John Littler
Read it here… Radar – O’Reilly

Computer Programming Is Art, And How It Has Influenced Me
by Ming Chow
Read it here… O'Reilly Media - Technology and Business Training

:slight_smile: