Retro VGS - A Niche Throwback?

News & General Discussion
1

Retro VGS Website

So it looks like some guys are trying make a push to release a retro-themed console with a somewhat questionable business model. Specifically, this “new” old system is going to be structured in the same fashion as home consoles of the distant past. It isn’t going to connect to the internet. It isn’t going to have any downloadable games. There won’t be any media functionality or firmware updates. There won’t be any patching for the games. It is going to run on cartridges, and only cartridges.

This thing is going to be about as retro as retro gets. And because of this, I have to question if there is an actual market for such a console. Perhaps an enthusiast niche market, but will it be enough to encourage development? And will there be enough support from middle-ware such as Unity? While it would probably be possible for Unity to add the Retro VGS as a build target, will there be enough interest to warrant it?

The guys behind this strange initiative are going to be firing up their Kickstarter in a week or two. So we’ll see what the general enthusiast crowd thinks of this idea. I’m interested to see what you, the Unity Community think. Would anyone here be interested in releasing a game on a device like this? Would it even be worth the trouble and expense?

4 Likes
2

Love it. I frequently take issue with the way modern console games are so tied to the Internet for functionality. It’s convenient for updates and patches but the long-term viability and use of these newer style games is severely compromised as a result.

I can plug in an old Atari 2600 cartridge today and it will be the same game as it was 30+ years ago. I don’t have to sign in. I don’t have to wait for an update to download. I don’t have to have an Internet connection at all to play the game. The game is the thing. Not the marketing opportunities afforded by being constantly online. There are games I bought ten years ago that are useless now because the servers are offline, they require connecting to some defunct web-based system, etc.

Going back to regular cartridges would be awesome. It would also bring with it higher standards of quality control. If a game has bugs, guess what… it won’t ship. That’s how it used to be. A team had to make sure the game was ready, because there was no going back. I believe that system worked well, and I was on teams that had to do it. “Get it right” is not so much of a concern these days. Games ship filled with bugs with a “fix it in post” attitude, and that sucks for everyone.

Now, with all of that said, if this company can’t get some good teams on board to create games for the system… compelling games… good games… then I’m not sure there’s much of a market for it. I assume they’ve given that quite a bit of thought.

So yeah, I’d buy one of these, if there were good games for it. I might even want to make games for it. I wish them the best of luck.

4 Likes
3

Wait, didn’t you just show me that video about gaming in '83?

Checked out the page. They seem pretty serious about this. The one red flag for me was how much compatibility they are trying to plug into the console, including two types of controller port, multiple processors and the like.

That all said, I expect this initiative to fail like pretty much all of the other ‘indie’ consoles over the last decade.

4

Yes, but I’m not sure what that has to do with it. You know there were plenty of games released before, during, and after 1983 that were awesome and fun and didn’t rely on the Internet to play them, right?

Unfortunately I agree, but I do wish them the best of success.

5

It’s a slick idea…and I swear there must be listening devices in my home* >.>

*I was/am working on similar idea ( cartridge console) using the RPi 2…tho mostly just for my own enjoyment.

1 Like
6

The internet has made it easier to release games that don’t work properly. In the old days if you released the game & it was buggy your rep took a beating & you had to live with it. Now they release a patch & rely on short attention spans & bright shiny objects to keep people interested. But that’s an argument for another day.

I really wish this would take off but I just can’t see it competing enough to make it viable for them to stay in business. There’s nothing stopping people from putting out retro games on the existing consoles. All I can hope is that because its games are on cartridge they run hard with the line that unlike their competitors their games HAVE to work when released. Push it hard, bring lots of attention to how poor the release stats are for games on the other consoles & then back it up with reliable releases & they just might have a small chance.

ps. if you like the retro look there’s also http://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php. They even call their released games cartridges as well. Seems like my age group is hitting the stage of reminiscing about the good old days…

7

Sorry, I was a bit oblique with my original post. Let me state my point more explicitly. Not being able to patch games doesn’t prevent the release of buggy games by companies wanting to cash in and make a quick buck.

8

lols i said to some person (talking about their unity plugin) about wanting whatever i make to still be playable 50 years from now, and dude was like wut? 50 years? thats weird durrr durr durr

9

I think this is awesome. I keep saying there are a lot of us out here who enjoy those old school games. This one has a great chance at actually making it because of the drivers behind it. Retro mag is great. There are only a couple real paper retro mags available these days. One I get comes from Europe. If anyone knows of others let me know.

Truly I do believe it is only a matter of time before we see something like this really stick just because there are way too many people who do enjoy these old school style of games. I know we don’t seem to have many of them on these forums because whenever I say such things people seem to think I am “over the hill”, “out of touch” or “plain loco” but yeah there is a whole big world out there is all I can say. lol

I will definitely give it my support. That is all I can do. It will be a nice addition sitting next to my NES and Genesis. Definitely hope it makes it.

@Ony I agree with you. I think a lot of the modern day gamers would probably not like it because all they know is Internet and Online multiplayer gaming and cutting edge 3D and so forth. You are right though. Back in the day sure there were some buggy games but they certainly put more effort it seems into debugging most of them. I also think they placed more value on game-play although they were limited by the tech of the times.

2 Likes
10

The choice of including an FPGA alongside the traditional processor is an interesting one. As they state it may allow the console to better emulate some platforms as well as allow developers to better optimize their games. It wouldn’t surprise me if it attracted some users more interested in the FPGA itself than the console.

Controller compatibility isn’t much of a red flag in my opinion. Many of the target audience are likely to still have their old game controllers. Last I checked I had half a dozen or more 9-pin joysticks myself.

3 Likes
11

Its mainly a flag from my manufacturing background, rather then game dev. Building in two types of ports will increase manufacturing costs. As will building in multiple processors. It also increases the general number of failure modes in the system. All of this increases the amount they will have to charge the customer.

From a game play perspective having two of each controller port type means players may have to own both sets of controllers to play the full range of games, or to play games with more then two players.

12

No but it certainly does help. We don’t live in a black and white world after all. :slight_smile:

1 Like
13

This thing is awesome…

"Think of it as hardware that is reconfigurable by the cartridge. The RETRO VGS will have its own cool configurations (ways to make a game), and it can also be hardware-configured to be other old-school architectures that a lot of developers are used to developing for. Specifically, and at this current time, it’s an FPGA and ARM system.

If a developer wants to make a Neo Geo game, they would include an HDL (Hardware Description Language) file that configures the FPGA to operate like a Neo Geo. The developer would code their game to run against the Neo Geo platform. This HDL code along with the actual Neo Geo game will be on the cartridge. Once that cartridge is placed in the RETRO VGS, it will become a Neo Geo and play that game. So in this case, the language is: 68000 and Z80 code.

If you wanted to do a new Atari 2600 styled game, you’d include a 2600 HDL file that configures the FPGA to replicate the logic of the original 2600 hardware and then you’d include your new 2600 game on that cartridge too. These two files are then paired up on the cartridge and when plugged into the RETRO VGS, will turn the console into a 2600. So the language that would be used in this case is: 6507 (6502 with less address space)."

Ha ha! That is pretty sweet. There are actually developers out there right now in 2015 who still make Atari games, Neo Geo games and many others. I was checking into that a while back thinking maybe that would be a better option for me.

If this new console can pool those existing developers together to support it that could bring in a nice variety of games. I wonder how configurable it is. Like could we provide an HDL file that configures it to a C64’s VIC and SID chips for example? Be fun to be back into 6502/6510 Assembly language programming again.

Thinking about all of this stuff we really need another major online game marketplace. GOG is probably the closed towhat I am thinking to a degree but not what I’d like to see.

I am thinking of a brand new completely retro style market. Not for retro cartridges (although something like this modern retro console cartridges could certainly be there). Mainly I am just thinking of a place where all of the gamers who like retro style games can go to buy their games. And all of the developers who are much more interested in developing such games can go to sell their games.

This would have several advantages: It separates the “old school” from the “new school” so all of the kids and so forth who go on sites like Steam and write stuff like “looks like some old game”, “looks all blocky”, “graphics are crap” etc won’t have to see those games anymore and instead can see only the 3D HD games they like.

Likewise, it has the same benefit for the retro style gamers. I don’t have to sift through tons of 3D and “modern” style stuff when I am really trying to find some old school style games to buy.

And a direct benefit of those two is that both modern & retro style game developers get much more targeted audiences. I think it’d be a win-win.

2 Likes
14

Totally. I really hope they can make this happen.

15

I think this looks like a cool idea that will never go anywhere.

  1. Cart distribution adds another layer to between developer and market that will keep indies away with the wide range of alternatives available.

  2. Having self contained games is only a plus for the customer, not developers.

  3. There’s no talk of dev tools, which worries me.

  4. The fact that the games would last forever is a down side to most major publishers.

  5. New consoles need games and #1, #2, #3, and #4 are really big reasons why no one will want to develop for it.

  6. This is really cynical, but the things they’re selling up (hardware longevity and self contained games) are long term things that most consumers don’t care about at all.

I definitely think that there’s room in the market for a new console that does something different, but this is not it.

All that said, I hope I am completely wrong and will most likely get one. Also, if you could dev for it, it would be a guaranteed success because there will most likely be no competition in the market.

2 Likes
16

If this catches on then someone is bound to make a cartridge with alternative ways to feed data into the console.

3 Likes
17

One of the main problems I see in the retro / home brew areas (which I think this would likely appeal to) is just too many different consoles. There are a lot of them out there with maybe 7,000 people owning this console, 10,000 owning that console. And so on. So it ends up fragmenting the user base across way too many systems. I’m talking about things like the GPX2, Caanoo, UzeBox, GCW-Zero, Dingoo, WIZ, Zodiac and even OUYA when it was around… and others targeting that dedicated user base. Then on top of that there are all of the things like the NVidia Shield which likely captures at least some of that market as well. Then of course we have all of the desktop retro games taking a bit of that market. And I suppose the mobile games take a bit of that market. And even the modern gen consoles target that market to a degree.

If they could actually get a main system in place the majority of the retro gamers jumped on it would be awesome. Something to bring all of these different retro-minded communities together.

1 Like
18

This is one of the major sticking points in my mind, and one that would limit the success of a console like this.

While there are issues with on-line connectivity, there are also some very significant advantages. And these advantages can help both the developers, and the end-users. And most of these advantages are in effect in the earlier stages of development and release.

The chances of this Retro console getting exclusive titles is exceedingly low. Very few developers are going to make a game, and then just release it on this device. So pretty much no one will be forced to purchase a Retro VGS in order to enjoy a specific game. It is much more likely that we will see ports of existing games come to the Retro VGS, after they have been refined and “finished” on other platforms. There are too many advantages to distributing your game first on digital platforms.

Now, that does not mean that the Retro VGS is doomed to failure. It is clear from the website that the people behind it are already aware of all of this, and are moving forward anyway. They don’t intend for this thing to sell like other mainstream consoles, and will likely not be selling the hardware for a loss. So they will be able to continue selling the hardware for a sustained period of time, and can stay in business even if the software doesn’t sell particularly well.

They can also push to developers that releasing a game on their platform is a matter of prestige. Target successful smaller developers and indie developers, and convince them to release the “final” version of their game on the Retro VGS, and sell the copies they order to collectors and at conventions for a premium price. With much smaller, limited print runs, the Retro VGS cartridges are just naturally going to be worth more to collectors. Especially if a Retro VGS release is the only physical copy release that some of these games get.

So, there’s potential here, so long as expectations are kept realistic. And the middle-ware scene is going to be important. The easier games are to port to the Retro VGS, the more likely that a developer will go to the trouble of releasing their title on that system.

2 Likes
19

I dont see how they expect distribution to work out. I believe an important step for lower budget/ indie games to gain traction was online distribution becoming popular so that you dont have to hit retail shelves anymore.

The retro games wont hit retail shelves.

On their website they give an example that an indie dev could order 50 cartridges of his game from their factory to give away at a convention… And then? Do they expect him to order 2000 cartridges afterwards and store those in his garage to send them via snail-mail when a customer writes him a letter with a cheque?

Or do they want to make an offline-Steam where you order your game (online, ironically) and they send it to you by snail-mail? They could use Amazon i guess.

A gaming system that you have to buy seperately, that wants to sell low-budget games without a practical distribution method… Yeah, no.

Granted, i dont have experience with gaming consoles so i dont get the nostalgia about cartridges, but i just dont see why someone would want to have such a thing. Not mention how darn expensive it is to develop a console and start mass producing it. I’d think it’s far too expensive for a bit of nostalgia for an unpractical method (offline distribution of data).

There might well be a lot of people who are turned off by the closed nature and online-only stuff of the the mainstream consoles, but i’d think they just use a PC.

2 Likes
20

This system isn’t being made for people who just want to play games. In my previous post I pointed out that current on-line distribution is very advantageous to developers and consumers alike. There isn’t nearly enough discontent in that space to carry a mainstream-level console.

This system is being designed for collectors. By it’s very nature, this system is going to be rare. It will be rare the second it gets released, and it will remain rare for years afterwards. And every last game that gets released for it will be rare, just by their very nature. Because of all that rarity, the physical release for this system will be able to command a much higher price than you would normally see. No developer is going to be selling games for this thing for $20. They’ll sell them for $100 each, and they’ll sell out.

You pointed out a 50-cartridge print run. If a developer went with that option, that means there would only be 50 copies of that game in the entire world. Compare that to physical release for any other game. Any game collector on the planet would be salivating to buy one of those cartridges at $100 a pop. They wouldn’t even think twice. If it’s a solid, critically-acclaimed game that has already gotten exposure and popularity on a digital-only platform? All the better, it will just intensify the demand.

3 Likes