Role-playing as a Randomly Generated Character

News & General Discussion
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When I was born, I didn’t get to pick my gender, my name, or my skin, hair, or eye color. I didn’t choose my father’s occupation, what country I was born in, or what town I was from. I didn’t tell them where to send me to school and what subjects I should focus on learning. It wasn’t up to me how much money our family had, what house we live in… You get the picture.

Yet, when we start a new character in a role-playing game, it’s pretty standard procedure that we customize all of these things to a fine degree. It’s one thing when an action game gives you a pre-defined character, such as Lara Croft in Tomb Raider, or Angry Muscle Freak in Gears of War. But once the door is opened for customization, we expect to be able to get down to the finest detail.

I’m not going to count The Witcher here, because that series is about the story of a particular man. Rather, I’m talking about an RPG that relies heavily on generated content and blank-canvas characters: here’s the world, and you’re just a part of it. Even if you end up being the hero, you didn’t start off that way. You start pretty much like any other random person in the game. I want to take that idea and run with it.

I love Skyrim. I couldn’t even guess the number of times I’ve started a new game. But every time, I end up creating the same or similar looking character: A Nord with pale skin, modest build, and nothing too crazy in the way of hair or anything. And it may be unrelated, but I end up playing the same way, too. Stealth-based, Stormcloak, etc. Instead of giving me the option, what if the game just generated my character for me and I played as that character, rather than sculpting him/her from scratch.

On one hand, I feel like this would be pretty neat. It may even encourage me to try playing a style I wouldn’t try otherwise (as an Orc, I might be more inclined to go Heavy Armor and Two-Handed focused). But I’m concerned that players may object to the notion of not getting to customize a character they know is generated.

In the context of the game I’m working on, a player’s character is impacted heavily by what country they’re born in, what social status their parents had, etc. If given the choice, I feel that players may be inclined to pick wealthy parents in a stable and prosperous country. Some may seek the challenge of a different start point, but I feel that a lot of motivation could be generated by forcing the player into a random situation (their birth) and letting them find the solution to it (how they live their life).

TL;DR

  1. What do you think about the player not having control over generated content that directly impacts gameplay such as starting opportunities and faction-alignment?
  2. What do you think about the player not having control over cosmetic options like character’s appearance, or their name?
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There was an uproar when Rust made character appearances random, but the people playing rust are generally people of low moral standards.

On the other hand, some 2d game i forgot the name of had semi-random lineages of knights where when you died you had to play as one of the random predecessors. Sometimes it was completely different than your last character. It was well received.

I like the idea, it just has to be fun to play.

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I like players not having control over everything when creating their character. In fact, I have played games like this.

Several years ago, I played a game where played with pre-generated characters. I did get to choose the character I wanted but I did not get to choose anything about her. It was a challenge because she was different from any character I had ever played, but it was also a more satisfying experience than any game I have played.

She also came with a lot of baggage and as this was a multiplayer game, I had to deal with other players reactions to my character. Plus, it was a real role playing game, which meant I really did have to deal with other player characters in the game…not just blow them off. Everything I did affected my character, in a positive or negative way.

Would this work in an rpg? Rust had lots of issues when they did not let players choose their own ethnicity/race. Many players don’t like not being able to min/max their characters.

We intend to test all this in our game because players will have limited control over building their character, both the stats and the appearance. Fortunately, our targeted audience will find this a challenge rather than a impediment…or so we hope. :slight_smile:

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I remember hearing about that and thinking how ridiculous it was. I played Rust briefly at my brother’s behest, and I had enough other problems with it that I never even thought about character customization.

I’d love to know what game you’re referring to! If you think of it, please let me know!

A fair point. If it’s fun, I’m sure people could look past a feature they weren’t crazy about. But if it’s not, it’s another item on a list of things they can say they don’t like.

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What game is this? Is it one still being played?

This is exactly what I’m aiming for! Being born with poor eye sight doesn’t mean you won’t be a great warrior. You just probably won’t be a great archer. I’m only planning on single-player, so I’m really interested in how perception might be different when the player is going up against only AI opponents… Will they feel they’ve been given an unfair handicap instead of everyone having to deal with some sort of issue?

One of the the biggest driving factors in how I plan a game is how to present things to the player without directly revealing the underlying numbers. Instead of thinking “I have 27 hitpoints left! I need to drink a Potion of Major Healing!”, I want the player to think “I’m hurt badly! I need to get out of here and heal or I’m going to die!” Min-maxers will not be happy with much of anything in my game, I’m thinking. :stuck_out_tongue:

Perfect attitude. And that statement alone is enough to pique my interest in your games, so it sounds like that may be a good direction to go! Thanks!

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Our game does not reveal numbers either. It has been a challenge as my poor programmer is one of those min-maxers. Our players will get to choose their background which may influence their stats but they will never see the numbers. They will discover what they are good at and decide if they want to be based on the skills they choose to learn. Their combat prowess will be tested by actually challenging others rather than by comparing numbers.

No numbers at all. :slight_smile: In a role playing game, hearing others say “I am a 7 in cooking, what are you?” really is annoying and has a big effect on immersion. Instead I want to hear, “I can bake a three layer cake, how about you?”

The game recently ended after a very long run. It was a text game with very deep lore and role play. It is a huge inspiration for the game we are making. Ours will not be the same as theirs and our lore was written well before I even found that game, but that long running game, with several hundreds of players on every day, many of them playing for many years, is something we would like to aspire to in the future.

P.S. Typing with a brace on so pardon the spaces and typos. lol

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I think you need to be very careful about characters as they move from ‘character’ to ‘avatar’.

Like Mass Effect, Commander Shepard isn’t fully an avatar. He/she is half avatar and half character.

The player chooses what kind of choices they want Shepard to make. Shepard is not fully an extension of the player, but is also not completely disconnected.

In action games with plot, during playable action sequences, the character is an avatar (full control), during cut scenes they’re a character (no control). When I’m running and shooting, the character is an extension of me, when I clear the level and watch the cut screen, I’m completely disconnected.

In pen and paper, the character is always 100% an extension of the player.

In most MMO, the character is 100% an extension of the player.

In plot heavy rpg like Mass Effect or Dragon Age - youre a hybrid. The character is kinda an extension of the player, but kinda a pre-scripted. Playing a character in Mass Effect feels more like taking control of a TV show or movie. You choose what happens to Commander Shepard, or what Commander Shepard does, you kind of have a vicarious experience through Commander Shepard, but Commander Shepard is not an ‘avatar’.

I think that the more the player is controlling a ‘character’ the more freedom you have in terms of giving them defects, weaknesses and baggage.

As you move closer to an ‘avatar’ I think most players will find a lack of control here a major turnoff.

Obviously this also depends on individuals. I would bet that the reason a really experienced Role Player like @Teila is so open minded to playing a wide variety of characters is because she looks at RPGs as a chance to ‘play a role’ like acting, rather than ‘experiencing a role’ like power fantasy gamers. So she is inherently looking at the character as more disconnected, even though she is in full control. As a really experienced Role Player, even when given an avatar, she treats it like its a character.

I donno if that makes sense, and if I mischaracterized you @Teila I’m super sorry!

I’m also a more disconnected gamer, I don’t tend to see characters as extensions of myself. Most of the time, I don’t even want to. I tend to avoid first person games like the plague, because I don’t want to be ‘in the game’.

Because I like a more disconnected experience, I am way more willing to play characters with crazy flaws or weaknesses.

Perhaps a great example is Crusader Kings 2 here you are fully disconnected from the game, you don’t see your character at all other than a portrait. So the fact that he’s “club footed” and “inbred” with a “malicious streak” can be just as (or more) enjoyable as playing a gifted character with a list of positive traits and bonuses.

End of day, I think that if your game presents a more disconnected view of the character - giving the player little or no choice in terms of character creation can be a benefit to the game. If your game tries to make the player feel like they have an avatar in game, then you need to let them tailor the character to fit the experience they want.

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I’ve actually thought about the same exact concept before and think it could work very well if implemented “properly”. By this I mean ensuring that the system doesn’t feel unfair to the player.

The randomly generated character should feel the same as any designed character we might find in any number of class based games out there. Having its own unique weaknesses and strengths. Giving the player an all around bad character that degrades the entire experience would probably not be a good thing. Unless that’s the whole point of the game maybe?

You should also be able to overcome most of the shortcomings you start out with. e.g poor can try to make money, fat can get in shape, etc. Just view these starting conditions as a unique set of challenges or difficulties the player needs to overcome. etc.

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@frosted I wish I could like a post more than once. Fantastic insight there, and something I hadn’t thought of at all.

I love love love CK2 and its character system. I hesitate to say it’s a major inspiration for my game, because that makes it sound like I’m setting myself up to never finish… But that type of character system is exactly what I’m trying to emulate to some degree.

From what you say, I’m going to have a delicate balance to strike, since the player will control their character directly as well as through the more distanced and overarching decisions as you would in CK2. It never occurred to me that actually limiting player input may help ease the acceptance of a character they have less control over, though. Thanks so much for the input!

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I am not sure how disconnected I am from my characters, whether in a video game, text game, or tabletop game. I tend to get quite attached emotionally to my characters. If I don’t, then it it is time for a new one. I would actually say that I am experiencing a role, but in a different way than power gamers. Acting sometimes comes into play but since it is more inprov than acting and it requires “being the character” rather than just reading off lines, it can be extremely immersive. It can also be emotional. I think emotions and immersion more lead to character development in a role playing game than acting.

I have played with actors in games and I found them boring. LOL It is much more fun to let the experiences mold the gameplay than pre-conceived scripts. I really hate scripted role play with a passion. Those people are more disconnected and their characters are too rigid. I have been punished for not following the script. lol

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Absolutely! There should be balance. I am not sure I like using class based as a definition. I would describe the balance as more subtle. Class systems pigeon hole people into rigid groups. But I do agree that one should not allow a random system to make a character so full of weaknesses that he can’t function or so fabulous that the game is not a challenge.

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Crusader Kings 2’s custom player generator (interestingly provided as DLC and not part of the base game… I think for good reason) works around this in a way by having points assigned to traits, and the sum of all your character’s traits has to be 0. So if I want to be a Genius (+3 points), I’d have to offset it by also being Ugly (-1) and Weak (-2), for example. I don’t know if their generated characters adhere to the same rules or not, but I think a system could be rigged up that does something like that for all characters, NPC and player. Maybe with a bit of variety (random trait balance offset of ± 3 points) to have a mix of strong and weak opponents.

Then again, like you said… maybe being imbalanced is part of the point! I love asymmetry in games, and having to work against a handicap could make for some fantastic gameplay. Or it could be horrible. As long as it could be good in theory, I think it’s something I’m willing to try tackling.

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I wonder if what @frosted describes as the difference between role-players and power-fantasy players is somehow aligned with people that tend to be more empathetic towards others and those who are more, for lack of a better term, narcissistic. Perhaps put better: those who play a game to experience something internally, vs those who play to experience something externally… if that makes any sense.

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That may be true. Some people enjoy games because they feel powerful while in their real lives, they feel powerless. Others do it for stress release and still others play to be creative. I know creativity is a huge reason I play games.

One who needs the feeling of power would probably feel powerless if they could not choose their own stats or see numbers that show they are successful.

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I think there are honestly many different degrees and it may not be so much about limiting input - as much as - disconnecting the player from the character.

I know, there is a lot of subjectivity and stuff there and the lines aren’t completely black and white.

Take a roguelike for example, here you are in full control of the character. But you don’t generally feel like you ARE the character. You’re controlling the little dude, you aren’t experiencing through him.

That makes sense. Maybe there is also an “explorerer” vs “power gamer” thing there, where you are more open to exploring different kinds of experiences. “What would it be like to be this kind of person?” rather than “I want to experience feeling powerful!”.

Maybe the difference really just comes down to being Ego driven or not.

As a note - I really think Crusader Kings 2 is maybe the first real single player Role Playing experience ever. Amazing game. The stories you can put together from CK2 experiences are just like no other game ever.

I really think that if you could make CK2 more accessible without destroying the game it could be one of the most successful games ever.

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Exactly!! For years I was always the healer or the cleric. Then a couple of times, I had to be something else, either because I was playing a pre-created character or had created the character to fill a role that someone asked me to play.

I learned that when I stretched my abilities and played an evil or conniving character, that it was difficult for me, challenging, and sometimes made me cry, but it was oh, so much fun! I don’t like to be hated, but being hated is okay if you are playing someone else. Doesn’t mean I didn’t have to sometimes suppress that icky feeling that someone hated me, not just the character, but of course, there was always the ability to talk to the person out-of-character and laugh over our roleplay and that helped.

So yeah, I do like to explore different character concepts. I like being the healer, but I found being the warrior was fun too! And cynical heart-breaking dancer, and the misunderstood biker girl, and so many others. :slight_smile: To me, it is like writing a book and seeing your characters grow and develop under your pen.

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I’ve played random characters in a number of Roguelike games. A couple of thoughts:

  • Should you let the player pick a class? I agree with @Teila that classes are a bit limiting; I prefer flexible skill-based games without rigid classes. But if your game has them, you might want to let players pick, since they may strongly prefer some play styles over others.
  • A “Roll Again” button may be a good idea — i.e. if they don’t like the randomly generated character, they can ask for a different randomly generated character. This gives them a little control, but not too much. I guess in that respect it’s a little like letting them pick the class. (Though with this feature, you wouldn’t need to let them pick anything else — they can just keep smacking Roll Again until they get a class they like.)

It amuses me that picking a character in a system like this is a lot like picking a mate in real life. I recall a mathematician explaining that, for optimum happiness, you should reject the first five suitors who come along, and then marry the next person you like better than any of those five. You could do the same in character selection.

Without some sort of roll-again feature, it’d be like a forced marriage over which you have no control at all. Some people will make the best of it, but others might just be miserable (and end up divorcing themselves from your game).

OK, stopping now before this analogy gets weird. :slight_smile:

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Wow, no wonder my husband and I are still married! lol

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@frosted : I agree. I never got into tabletop RPGs like D&D, so CK2 is the closest I’ve gotten to real role-playing… Doing stuff based on what I think the character would do rather than what I wanted to do. Even making an extremely watered-down version of CK2 is a lofty goal, but I like the implication and will liberally use it as an inspiration!

@Teila : Every time I read your posts I get this sense that you’re just this sweet, sensitive person. Totally confirms this with the way you play RPGs, haha. But amazing that you get into it enough to play the baddie despite how it makes you feel. I wish all gamers were as cooperative as you!

@JoeStrout : One of the things I love about Skyrim is that they finally moved away from the class-based system. That’s always felt like an artificial construct to me that doesn’t jive with how we actually act as people. I may be a bard today, but nothing’s stopping me from quitting my job tomorrow to go be a thief! I might be a terrible one, but darned if I can’t try!

I will certainly have skills and attributes, and these starting stats will be greatly affected by your character roll, but to a degree, the player should be free to adapt those things as they play. With the exception being things that may severely limit one ability (like a congenital disease that limits your maximum strength), but ideally would be offset by a bonus (a quick-witted ability that allows you to train your intelligence higher than most). Of course, it’s going to take actual playing to see if it all works.

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As @Teila points out there are a multitude of reasons people play games. So I think the concept of empathy or selfishness alone is far too narrow an aspect to judge by here. There’s also a lot of diverse games out there and the reasons for playing any of them can vary drastically. For example, sometimes I play a game because I really want to experience the lives of the characters in it, other times I just want to let off steam and don’t give a crap about the story. etc. In other words, gamers can have very diverse tastes. Even within themselves and depending on their mood!

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