Student needs wisdom.

News & General Discussion
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Greetings !

My name is Marc Jacob, I’m 18 (soon 19) years old, I live in France, and in one month I will begin the second and last year of my current degree in computer science.

I might talk about myself a lot because I need wisdom other than my father’s and grandparents’ for an important decision I will have to make in not so long. So here’s what I’m gonna do : I’ll explain the situation, and then I’ll tell you about myself so you might throw the right wisdom in my mug ! :slight_smile:

As I said, I have only this one year left and I’ll have my first (last ?) diploma : “Diplôme Universitaire Technologique Informatique” (It’s french. I’ll let you translate it). It’s a short degree and it’s very general : it’s half IT (“general” programming, database management, web development, human-machine interfaces…), half side subjects like math, communication, finance, law, project management…

The choice I have to make is simple, really. I have the possibility of entering a school on video game dev in year three right away (since I’ll have validated my 2 years degree) and as such keep studying for 3 more years, or I might just stop my studies altogether and get working on my project(s).

Simple, yet difficult. I was told by my father (who’s a computer engineer himself) that given my current skills, 3 more years would not be worth it if my aim is to increase my productivity. I was told by my grandparents that my country (France) and the world at some extent is still a very “categorised” world where having more years of study than average will make people “trust” you more your whole life. My own feeling is that I feel like I have no time to waste, and that I should get working as fast as possible, but then would starting 3 years early make me advance faster than starting after 3 more years of studying ?

And that is why I’m asking for your wisdom today. I am aware there are professionals around here, or at least people with experience, and of course I need their help.

Now for some details about me.

Since I was 11 years old, I have been doing programming and other parts of the game making process (game design, mostly by assisting indy game developpers in making important choices, 3D art, animation). And also since that time, I’ve known I would at least start my active life by building my own game studio from the ground up. Leadership has always appealed to me, and in recent times I have been managing a few small teams, also managed small to medium structures in online game.

When I have free time, like right now since I’m in vacation, I don’t like feeling unproductive so I often spend time reading about science, history, and computer science, or making myself better at and trying to understand complex, competitive games like Starcraft II.

To give you an approximate idea of my current knowledge, in this first year of actually studying IT (first time in my life I ever did any programming at school, we don’t do any before that in France), I haven’t learned much on actual programming, learned a thing or two about interface design and databases. I recently participated in Ludum Dare 39 (can share a link to the game if you wish) as the team’s programmer, and I made a lot of prototype-ish stuff on Unity over the years, trying my best to use the lowest amount of pre-made code as possible (usually using only the Engine itself, rarely anything from imported packages). I don’t really know how else I could give you some idea…

Now, I know I’m no special flake, not even close. Just giving some detail so you know a bit more about me. Felt it was necessary to do so since the decision I will have to make really depends on my skill, working spirit and ability to learn.

If you read all the way there, well, I thank you.
Looking forward to your educated advice !

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I can’t tell you what to do, but from my experience, a degree is nice to have, and the bigger it is (E.G. - Masters VS Associates) is a big different, it tells an employer you can stick with something without giving up, at least a higher range of energy before giving up.

However, at the same time, you technically don’t need a degree whatsoever for game design. A game design degree means zilch and is to me a rip off. Either get the highest coding degree you can get E.G. Masters of CS. Or just get what you’re about to get and gain experience, experience trumps a degree any day, however - 9 out of 10 jobs (my estimations) don’t require a degree, but that 1 out of 10 does need a degree. But with that being said, this points to some important information.

Degree = nice to have, the higher the better. But (to me) a game design degree, is pointless.
Experience = trumps all other qualifications, if you can prove ‘Hey I made a Terminator AI’ that does exactly like the Terminators do, chances are you’ll have robotics companies swarming all over you, because you’ve proved your self and they know you can persist through the challenges, and that you can actually do the job.

College is a good thing to have, but keep in mind the reason (to me), experience trumps a degree, is because a degree doesn’t put you in real life situation, with real money on the line, it teaches you the glorious fun parts of the job, not the bad sides.

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Sorry for double post, just want to make sure you get this next message encase you’re reading the last.

But ultimately, do what you believe you should do in your heart. Don’t take what we say as facts, take what we tell you and sit on it, and make a proper decision based on what we all tell you. We will all say different things.

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Yes, I expect people will, and that is why I asked for people’s opinion on a forum :slight_smile:

Yea, Game Design degrees I find doubtful aswell. Never wanted to do that. If I keep studying, it will only be to increase my own productivity as a coder, perhaps team leader. Question is, would it increase it to the point I can spend 3 more years not working ? Hard question I suppose.

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Yeah that’s something you’ll have to determine your self, we don’t live in your shoes, so only you can truly determine this choice.

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I certainly agree with @N1warhead_1 here. If you want a degree, go for a regular computer science one.

This is still generally true. But also be aware that game degrees are not considered ‘real degrees’ in some of the circles that require degrees. So if its respect you are after, studying games isn’t the best idea. Even in game developer circles game degrees frequently don’t get as much respect as a regular degree.

I remember being 19 and thinking every choice I made would determine the rest of my life. Turns out it doesn’t. Life gives you plenty of opportunities to try different things and make different choices. Its quite common to go back to school and do more study. Or to change jobs and try a new career path. So you can always try one or the other, and change your mind if it doesn’t work out.

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While I tend to veer away from offering advice via the internet, what I can do is tell you what I would do in your position, which is to weigh the risk/reward of my options. There isn’t much risk (aside from financially speaking) in continuing your education; if it doesn’t pan out, your fallback is your other option. I also don’t like to pigeon hole things, but the data seems to suggest that people don’t often return to school once they’ve left. I would get my education while I am already in the process of getting my education with the understanding that I always have the option to leave and begin my career at any point; the video game industry isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

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It might be worth it doing a degree in game development just to be around lots of people passionate about game development. Actually the social/cultural experience of a degree could be one of it’s best selling points.

Ideally a game development degree would fast track you through the basics and into the magic of game development showing you industry tricks and tips along the way.

Unless you are surrounded by lots of passionate game developers with industry experience or offers or internships in existing studios then maybe a degree is a good option?

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@makemydaypunk : game design degree’s hold no real credible value in the real world from a lot of research I’ve done. Because at one point it even peaked my interest to do it a few years ago. But truth be told, a lot of people (jobs), won’t take you seriously with a degree focused solely on game design specifically.

I can’t give any answers as to their reasoning’s, I’ve never asked, just read a lot of stuff.They’d rather take someone with no degree that just knows what their doing, well that’s generally any case actually. But you’re always better off having a straight up Computer Science Degree, or some sort of Art degree if you rather do art, etc etc.

From my research of game design degrees, I can see why potential employers wouldn’t take the person seriously. Because the way the curriculum was (at least when I researched it), they just throw a bunch of everything in it, without getting the sole dedication a traditional course will give you.

So instead of coding for 4 years, you’ll code for 1 year total throughout the 4 years, while at the same time doing all the other tiny and big tasks involved.

So example a typical year would look something like

1st 3 weeks - introduction to programming.
2nd 3 weeks - introduction to music theory,
3rd 3 weeks - introduction to basic 3d art.
4th 3 weeks (first half - programming, second half art).
5th 3 weeks - etc etc etc etc.

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Unless your parents are loaded and give you 1milliion or more loan - this is not going to happen. Business development costs a lot of up front money (if there is more than 1 person in the business), and with zero industry experience, reputation and exposure to THE business - this is a extremely risky starting point. 99% failure probability rate.
If you are talking about starting your own solo indie business - that is really not much of anything, and will only give you credence on your resume if you happen to develop a couple games that are moderately successful.
Don’t think creating a business and “hiring” people to work for ‘free’ until the first game is released and everyone gets paid fat sacks of cash - is a winning path. Refer to above failure probability.

Instead consider becoming a business related employee in someone elses business - to gain experience, gain knowledge and earn money while you are at it. Also - 99% less risky.

Although I suggested becoming a business related employee in someone elses business - you are EXTREMELY unlikely to become a manager or be placed in any leadership role straight out of HS or college.
Reason being - you have no REAL experience, you are not a known quantity, and you do not know THE business.

You are a marginal/average candidate for a QA or junior level programmer position. But truthfully - you will be competing with the large unemployment pool of (less talented) programmers who have minor experience and a college degree, plus others who are coming straight out of HS.
QA or jr programmer positions will be positions with no leadership responsibilities at all. But this is a great place to start because you can show during your employment you are interested in management/leadership (which a lot of other employees are not), and you have the BOOK knowledge to manage. You will gain experience of the industry, and business while you are employed as a QA or junior programmer, and you will be able to move up, or move on to your next position, higher up in the pecking order.

Also you might consider getting a business degree while you are employed - which is valued in corporations/businesses when you eventually become a manager or senior level employee.

Sorry if this seems harsh - reality is usually harsh - but you said your not a snowflake so I figured you can handle it.

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What ? You say I can’t enslave people to work for me gratis ? We’ll see :smile:

In all seriousness, thank you all for the answers, they are good reflexion material.

In truth, I’m well aware of that. I’m also well aware bankers or donators won’t be interested in an eager fresh-out of studies programmer. What I meant by “starting” was more in a “as soon as possible” sense. If by the time I finish my studies I have nothing to sell, I’ll be driven to being employed at least for a time. And yes, working alone for the first games is definitely something I’ve came to accept, even look forward too… sometimes a team really slows everything down :wink:

Agreed. My apologies if I made people think that was my idea of active life, I’m well aware trusting other people to “place” you at whatever leading position just because is a failing gamble. That’s one of the reasons why I wish to work for myself, won’t have to worry about being placed anywhere. As I see it, game devs are quite fortunate in the sense that what they need (as in, in minimum) is a computer, and sometimes not even a very good one, meaning you are not as reliant on the physical means of production of some company to create value. On the other hand, said company could own a very good game engine, have the best (copyrighted) idea or simply very talented artists - things a lone gamedev rarely gets while being on his own, but I’m straying from topic.

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I think you are overestimating the cost of a startup. At 19 you need enough money for a computer, an Internet connection, and to not starve or freeze. That doesn’t take much.

There are a large number of groups that form from friends in this situation leaving school together. Some of them even break even.

Really? That sucks. In chemical engineering it’s completely normal to give a new graduate a plant to be in charge of. There are experienced people around of course, but you are part of the management team from day one.

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Well, it makes sense this would vary from sector to sector : being able to run a plant demands, I think, quite specific skills which are not needed nearly as much for whatever it is the plant’s workers do, meaning being in charge is directly linked to having the right diploma, whereas in computer science, things are more blurry.

Keep the insights coming please, every reply helps :slight_smile:

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Of course Im overexaggerating but the purpose is for effect and to make the point 99% of those “hey we should make our own game studio” groups - fail.
Of course we never hear about them because they never give post mortems on how they failed as a startup.

This is shocking.
What part of the management team? Junior coffee fetcher? Its hard to believe veterans will take leadership direction from a 22-24 year old kid with ZERO applicable experience. Yes - in my world school experience counts for very little, regardless of criculum, corses, professors.

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From day one I was responsible for making technical and planning decisions for the commodities plant and was project manager on a half a million dollar capital project. Three months in I was leading a cross functional safety team. A few years in and I was responsible for technical decisions across the entire site, writing capital budgets and sitting on the site steering committee.

So certainly junior management. I never had any direct reports. But I had plenty of people who did what I told them to do. And plenty of responsibility for some fairly critical decisions.

As @Hoshiqua points out, manufacturing really is a different world to IT. We tend to have a lot of fairly diverse specialist roles. Having a degree here opens a lot of doors that would otherwise be completely shut. I’ve seen industry veterans of 40 years shut out of a position they were best qualified for because they didn’t have the right degree. If this question was about manufacturing, I would say an engineering degree is an absolute must.

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Interesting. Pretty much everywhere I’ve worked (tech/creative), management is defined by having direct reports. The exception being “project manager”. While having manager in the title, they are not usually management. And on occasion “art manager”, which usually oversees outsourcing. “Leads” oversaw a discipline, but typically weren’t responsible for managing people. Directors were management, or if there wasn’t a director role, a senior lead may handle the management. In small teams, where there was typically single role disciplines it would be the lead or executive producer.

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We use the term people manager to describe those with direct reports. The direct reporting line mainly exists for HR stuff like determining pay rises, discipline, promotions and the like. I haven’t been a people manager yet, and I’m not sure if that’s a path I intend to go down at all.

We tend to be more flexible with our use of the term management. We pretty much use it to describe everyone that isn’t actually doing work. Manufacturing requires a lot of specialist decision makers, which get collectively referred to as management.

In terms of this definition I was certainly giving direction to people with 30+ years of experience straight out of uni. Its a rough path at times, some of them certainly gave me trouble. Its certainly an interesting experience trying to convince someone who’s been doing the job a certain way for 30 years that a brand new graduate has a better way. For the most part we got over it.

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This doesn’t even happen for computer science degrees. I have a friend who’s worked for a number of American defense contractors over the last 5 years and he’s not in management yet, it’s probably something that would come to fruition near the end of the next five years (and that’s just getting started) if he shows an interest.

I’d imagine you’re already aware of this, but chemical engineering is very much the cream of the crop between the two disciplines–and it seems to have the “drawback” that you’re pigeon-holed to that one type of job (conjecture on my part). There was a guy in our chemistry master’s program who’d had a chemical engineering B.S. whose description matched yours (“with a chemical engineering degree you run a plant”), who went back for the chemistry master’s because he found it uninteresting enough to change things up.

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Thats what most of us workin folk think too.lol

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Genuine question, what does the degree provide that hands on experience does not provide in your field?

I’ve commonly experienced the same structure as @zombiegorilla - although I have not worked for a commercial game development company.
The main difference in my field, as with most small dev teams I suspect is the seniors/leads/manager hats are all worn by one person.
Whats unfortunate about this situation which is a common issue with small teams, usually the best artist/programmer does the least amount of the art/programming, because they have to juggle team and project management tasks, leaving little time to create.
However I’ve experienced more than a couple times when bringing in a non artist/programmer to manage the team/project tasks, motivation drops and project progress is stunted.

I don’t know why this is - but seeing it in different companies, with completely different ‘types’ of personalities and leadership styles makes me think there is something about experience and background in related fields that causes this effect.

About hiring - If all line items were equal and the only difference was experience vs degree, hands down I would hire or promote a person with 4 years hands on experience, without a college degree vs. a person straight out of college with no experience.