Technicalities, games as a whole!

If you’re a game developer wanting to (or do) sell to the public, what are your thoughts on competition, time, scalability and productivity in games creation?

Six months ago, I wanted to go in a specific direction which ultimately changed due to time and technology. Looking at competition too hard made me loose perspective on what I was trying to achieve, productivity and enthusiasm took us in a direction we never EVER thought we’d go down.

We’ve scrapped concepts more times than I’d care to admit and our approach ever changes, for all the documentation and game plans. It’s amazing at how time and technicalities shaped our vision.!

Are you saying you scrapped ideas because they were appearing to be clones of other games?

Sometimes people want to try something new. If some AAA studio puts out a $60 standard fps but with 1 unique feature but you produce an indie game focused on that feature for say $8-$15, you’ll probably see a lot of sales.

I like PoE’s “develop a game that we want to play” mentality. If you’re focused on your own idea, the competition probably won’t matter because most of the competition is pandering to the biggest market or continually remaking the same game every year with worse optimization (haha see what I did there instead of saying nicer textures?).

You can also consider Portal’s beginnings for inspiration. Make a game based on a unique concept and hope others will find it interesting and fund it.

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@Tomnnn

No for all sorts of reasons, technical limitations of the engines and software your using. Time, effort etc.

Sorry, I meant more along the lines of technical competence and matching your competition. Let’s say Witcher 3 has mass statistics as shown below, if you were to attempt that sort of game as an Indie it really doesn’t matter about your status. You’ll be compared to that game.!

But as an Indie (meaning small to mid developer) it’d be practically impossible to reach an equivalent.

@ ah. Well the big difference there is going to be budget and time / effort I suppose. I’m seeing more successful games being made with Unity and Unreal every week. Most recent I guess would be lost ark online for unreal and cities : skylines for unity. Cities : skylines is very impressive and selling well at $29.99 :smile:

But when it comes to particular games like The Witcher, well, how can you expect to compete with an in house engine? I guess if you had a super highly skilled team, you could modify the unreal engine to a point where it could start to compete, but that’s going to take lots of time and money. I don’t think you can get around Unity limitations save for extremely expensive workarounds or waiting on updates.

Cities : skylines is being compared to EA’s ‘SimCity’ and that comparison is making EA look bad and Colossal Order ltd look fantastic, and they used Unity3D :).

So I suppose either you need to innovate and do the game better, or fight shiny vs shiny and lose due to technical limitations haha.

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First - I’m a one-man band, who’s made a grand total of about $25 off of my games. My current project is the first one I’m planning to actually sell, and not just offer freely on free game portals (though, I’ll do that too after the initial spike falls off.)

I look to my competition not to shape what I do, but more what I build. My competitors - including you…in fact, probably especially you, @ * - are very bright peole who in most instances have done this A) longer, and B) most likely a lot better, than anything I’ve yet done. Directly competing, as a one-man band, who cannot yet put a full eight hours per day into a games project, is a laughable concept. Increasing the amount of time I put into my current project - as suggested after my last one - has helped a lot with everything, but that’s not the point.

Instead, I play other people’s games, and learn. If Game A has a neat way of approaching NPC sociology, I take note. If Game B has a cool boss fight, I take note. If Game C has a cool quest sequence, I take note. Pretty much, my competition isn’t there to ‘fight against’; instead, you’re all the subject of my research!**

As far as time goes, as much as I like @Gigiwoo 's 12-week view of game development, I think there’s situations where it doesn’t hold up. Some experiences - like a RPG, regardless of hemisphere - could be done in 12 weeks, if and only if you’ve got a darn good pipeline for creating content. However, the penalties of a project taking too long are a reality too; one figure I’ve heard from my bosses at the day job said that a project begins drastically increasing it’s chances of failure after nine months have passed. That might just be business software - which, is the day job - but it makes sense for games too. Of course, your game could ‘work’ with a longer dev scale.

Also on the subject of time - my last project turned out to be my best one yet, because I budgeted time for bugfixes, which led to a slight uptick in my game’s user ratings (I think something like +1.5-3.0%, but my design had problems to start with.) Had I scheduled time to properly polish the game, it would likely have helped still more.*** I’ve already scheduled about a month for nothing but hammering on the game, and I’m planning a polish phase of whatever half of my main dev phase turns out to be, because I really need to spend the time to make my game great.

On scalability and productivity, I think that - and, I’m putting on my Captain Obvious hat here**** - that a bigger game more often than not is harder to be productive on, because the same amount of work achieves ‘less’ against the project. More simply, you could say that a project has ‘weight’ as a function of its size. This weight can help the momentum, from an emotional perspective (‘holy crap I’m building a big JRPG!*****’), but it also makes initial work harder to pull off.

That’s why I’m working on what I’d call a ‘JRPG short’, with not much more than 3 hours of ‘core’ gameplay required to finish the main questline, but a small amount of optional quests that can be pursued to alter that play time (I want my shortest path for the speed runners to be about a 45:00 path, actually, and that involves getting the speedrunner reward weapon in the final dungeon, which becomes inaccessible after 1:30:00 of play time.) Content sucks, and I have less experience at making it; so, I’ve been spending time developing a campaign that requires less explicit content and leaves more to the player’s desire to explore.

I think to make something that is actually good, that I can make a real financial return on invested time with, and that leaves me feeling good about the project, going nuts with a AAA-length epic is the wrong approach…period. I see the AAA industry ailing under its own weight; the reason AAA games are becoming less relevant isn’t because smartphone gaming ‘is better’; it’s got a different objective. AAA games aren’t becoming less relevent because ‘indie games are better’; for every successful indie game that is unique, artful, and ultimately lucky, there’s 1000 others that horribly fail, indie games don’t displace AAA. Instead, what’s hurting AAA games the most is they’re trying to be too much, and, they’re failing at it.

As an indie - whether in my current one-man-band state, or if I eventually join up with a studio - I don’t want to be what I see AAA currently being. I see a small scope that provides interesting options to the player being the profitable, doable, and sustainable path forward.

As a result, I feel that if you feel yourself choking under the weight of your project, like I did the side-scrolling version of Sara the Shieldmage, it’s time to pull out the machete. If the machete would turn your game into stew meat, there are other genres to explore, other paths in the maze of making your next project.

Finally, I don’t think it bad that you’ve acknowledged how many concepts you’ve killed. Every concept I killed gave me some piece of what made my last project, and what’s making my current project, be it knowledge of something not to do, or a cool component. Every killed concept drives me harder to finish something. In fact, Sara the Shieldmage is the first project that under normal circumstances I would have just ‘killed’, but instead I redirected it, and it seems to be taking, for the time being. We’ll find out when I post my ‘Nuuria Continent’****** prototype, which should hopefully be within the month.

*: Grr! (Not really. You’re pretty cool.)
**: Muahaha.
***: Had I properly designed it in the first place, though, I might not care.
****: It’s actually Master Chief Sergeant Obvious.
*****: I’m not making a big JRPG, I value finishing things.
******: I will not stop plugging Sara the Shieldmage. It will be awesome.

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Well I suppose that’s an extreme example, point being some times we have to re-factor and play to our strengths. Hence re-concept design and more procedural logical designs, just from the amount of work hours alone an indie could never compete head to head.

But it doesn’t mean we can’t play to other strengths with the right tools to back us.

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@AndrewGrayGames

Well it all spiralled out of control quickly, what started out as a 2 man hack n’ slash turned into a mid sized indie heading towards stomping Skyrim…! Which err, thinking back around the whole situation probably wasn’t the smartest plan.

Which brings to your point, even though Skyrim was a good game most of it was empty. A lot of it just involved walking, so did it really need to be that big? Well in some ways I suppose, it certainly sets a feeling of scale but it doesn’t particularly have much in the way of interesting game play.

Plus the other offsets, in a game that size the amount of technical needs are horrific even with AAA engines but even more so with general purpose engines which causes headaches and sacrifices. I’m not even sure AAA can really pull it off never mind us Indies…

Whilst games aren’t about GRFX, your head definitely pops up when you see a good looking game. When you micromanage small chunks, you can pay more attention to details and gameplay. Specific art styles naturally look better than others and there’s little anyone can do about it…

Don’t get me wrong, there are still city scape’s and it’s not exactly “tiny” but split into chunks and easily manageable which has equated to more enthusiasm as a whole.

I’m pretty sure we could of pulled off the massive game, but I’m not sure if we’d of been happy with the end product. So with everything working against us, technicalities, limitations and technology equated to too many compromises.

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One day I will try my hand at selling some games It is a ways off though. Mainly because I am just taking my time building all of the infrastructure necessary to do a bigger scale project. Currently I have only worked in 2D in Unity because I enjoy 2d retro style games a lot and because this way I can focus more on building all of the infrastructure I need to tackle more complex projects.

My first game project (a side scrolling Operation Wolf style game) I learned the Unity system in general. To a degree at least.

My second game project (a platformer) I designed an animation system, wrote a Notifications/Messaging System and experimented with different ways of handling global references.

My third game project (a simple shootemup) I experimented with different ways of doing things here and there and just basically applied everything I had created.

My fourth and current game project (an action adventure that can be seen in my Avatar) I continued exploring different ways of doing things. This time mainly focusing on world management and in fact started over nearly completely from scratch twice. This time I designed a collision system, interaction system, persistence system and world management pattern.

Although what is seen in my little 2D game seems quite simplistic it is not simple drag n drop game objects here and there and so forth. The enemy subs each have a purpose. Gatherers seek out treasures and return them to the EvilCorp cargo ship. Hunter subs patrol and engage anything that may threaten the Gatherer subs. The subs communicate with each other for example if two subs are going after the same treasure the first one to retrieve it lets the others know “hey I got it” and so forth. Interactions are easily implemented resulting in forces being applied, “materializing” objects, destroying objects, releasing attached objects (such as the plants which all have a state which starts out as “rooted”) and so forth. All of these things I need because I want to build game worlds that have more interaction available than what we have normally seen up to this point. In fact, I just finished adding the last thing I think I need to get back to actually working on the game itself again.

Anyway, what I am getting at with all of this is I think the best way is to just make something smaller scale but do it with your future goals in mind. Meaning when you build your smaller scale game focus on building at least some of the systems you will need for the “grand” game you really want to build. You cannot expect to just come right out of the gate and compete with all of the technology & experience AAA companies have available.

Even those AAA companies using Unity I am certain over time across multiple games they have continued to build additional systems, utilities and streamline their processes so they can achieve more with less work. Unity/Unreal/Whatever does a lot but there is a lot more needed to build a game like Skyrim than what any of them have “out of the box”. It takes time to identify all of these needs and then to build them. So you make a game. Do the best job you can with it but keep the scale down. When you finish that game you have a well built system or two that you can use for future projects. So then you make another game (perhaps even a sequel) and you can take advantage of the tech you built and the experience you gained on the first game. With the second game you can focus on advancing other areas of the game perhaps building an NPC manager or inventory manager or combat engine or whatever.

I imagine this is how all of these games such as Oblivion and Skyrim or Witcher 1, 2 and 3 were created. Building something like Witcher 3 or Skyrim right from the start would have been a crazy project to take on even with a massive size team available. So first they just built something good and during that project they created some systems and probably a utility or two and established some patterns to follow. Then using those as their starting point they made a sequel that pushed the game further towards where they wanted it to be building more tech and defining more patterns. This needs to be done in steps. Iterations. Not tackling such beasts all at once from the very start.

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@GarBenjamin

I think you hit the nail on the head there, I bet a lot of stuff from Skyrim were just tweaks from Oblivion. Most older games had texture limitations etc. so a lot of it was down to just upgrading the basics.

Most of the legwork was done, now it’s a matter of continually improving on it instead of taking on everything.

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One of the things I noticed from Skyrim was how most of it’s new features were all things modders had done in Oblivion. I wasn’t terribly surprised to hear a lot of modders were working for Bethesda either.

At this point I’ve pretty much put down the most recent idea. It’s not a bad concept, sort of a story based 4X RTS (and by story based I effectively mean explore the world to find the clues about this thing that’s coming to kill you in an hour or two), but for now it’s shelved. With “three months” and a team of two or three, it could actually be an interesting little experiment, but what it’s going to take to make viable is more than should be on my platter for now.

So now I’m just stuck in the bizarre nether region between projects where I have a million ideas, but none of them are viable. Worse yet is my default seems to be roguelike, which just sends me back into my graph theory hellscape. I’m really starting to think hell is other nodes.

@ On one hand I kind of want to be frank and say you had to have seem this coming. If you were hunting a mastodon, you shouldn’t be surprised when suddenly the black ranger calls it and it starts transforming… yeah, I’m prepared for that reference to go over most people’s heads.

On the other hand if given an artist who can model, I would jump on making a 3D zelda-like game, and probably find myself with the same sort of scale/scope issues six months down the line. I just wouldn’t have to worry so much about comparisons and the art quality.

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What about the TES mmo and the skyrim multiplayer mod? :o

Some random thoughts.

Fighting million dollar projects on shininess is a losing proposition. To win on lower budgets you main focus should be the basics. Make the gameplay engaging. That’s why Skylines beat out Sim City. The core experience was better. As a long time fan of the sim city series I’ve been disappointed with later versions. Sure they look prettier then the dos based versions. But the old versions made me feel more like a mayor.

Building on old engine is also a good idea. It’s not just the brand that keeps selling COD titles. Its also cheaper to make the next COD title then it would be to make some other random game. I do the same thing. I wrote an object pool script once, and it keeps getting reused in new projects. I do the same with my social media plugin. And my advertising manager. Even down to things as basic as projectiles.

Losing concepts isn’t a bad thing. The general idea should be to kill concepts that won’t work as fast as possible. Its easy and cheap to kill a concept as a concept. Its harder if you have six months of work invested into a game that doesn’t work.

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@RockoDyne , I’m not sure if it’s sad that I do get that reference? :smile:

Hmm, I’m not sure there is a way to “see it coming”. Software always rapidly iterates and allows more, Unity 5 vs. Unity 4 has removed a lot of limitations. Although you should deal with what you have, it’s been a VERY odd time to start making a game with everything that’s been going on, like the new defacto standards in artwork Etc. Hopefully things will settle down for a bit now.

Not to say that I obviously didn’t understand that games split into chunks compared to open world would be far easier to pull off, some things are a given. Dynamic lighting impacts performance and looks far inferior to baked lighting, that’s also a given.

@Kiwasi

I would of agreed with you until UE4 came out, some of the work being done by single artists / single dev’s and students look far more impressive than anything I have ever seen in the AAA space. Don’t get me wrong there’s still a lot of umm yeah…

As for the rest, yup :).

You might be right on this. Definitely a space to watch.

These tools will also have their effect on the AAA industry. But I struggle to believe they will kill it. My general thought is that if one person can make something amazing with the new tools, then two people working together can make the same thing faster. Extend that logic out and 50 people with millions of dollars will always be able to do more then 1 person working on a shoe string budget. There are going to be some upsets. There will always be big studios that mess up due to inertia or management. There will always be small studios and individuals that punch above their weight. But ultimately bigger groups will continue to dominate. Even if it is through some indie becoming insanely successful and hiring on a hundred people for their next title.

What might change is the pattern of dominance in shininess. There is that old meme that says something like “I tried this new thing called outside today, the graphics sucked”. Games in general are getting pretty close to the point where there is not a huge amount more that can be done with graphics. It might not be in this round of engines, but pretty soon even the half baked amateur games may be able to rival the AAA industry for shininess. It will be interesting to see what becomes the next mark of a high quality game.

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@Kiwasi

Hopefully gameplay, a lot of space is being filled by Indies and with the lack of AAA games in the pipeline it’s a good time to be an Indie, some of us just have to dare take it to the next level.

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An emphasis on good gameplay would be nice.

As to taking it to the next level, that’s going to have to be you rather then me. I’m currently too risk adverse to do the things that becoming a successful indie would require. Things may change in a few years.

Not to mention you can edit the source code to tune the engine to your needs. It definitely is the best option you have to fight shiny with shiny.

It’s hard to fight with ‘free’ and ‘open source’. In the coming years who knows what tools and improvements will come out. It could kill more than it intends to and rule the market :confused:

Well we seem to do VS. threads constantly, but when we come down to brass taxes there are only two engines still worth considering and both have cons. Which two isn’t that many when you think about it.!

The more you push the more reliant we are on our tools, the simplest design decisions can make a game a slugfest. For e.g. top down you only have essentially a small block in frustum at any one time, also you’re always at a distance from textures. So you can get away with smaller res textures and you’ll not have to really worry about performance issues… Any relatively half decent engine could deal with this effectively…

Flip that camera around into a front view and all of a sudden things become a 1000X more complicated, there may be tens of thousands of meshes in view at any one time.

You’ll have to find better occlusion solutions, you’ll probably have to consider texture streaming. Hell even level streaming if it’s big enough… If the world is big enough you’ll need point of origin reset or physics will bug out, then you start adding more ideas like destruction which requires Apex and then you’ll see people close up so you need to animate speech etc. Draw calls become a major issue, lighting becomes more of an issue, shadows, post etc. etc. etc.

All that from flipping a camera, the smallest decisions can have the biggest impacts. But if the correct tools are in place, you can mitigate time loss although if you were to try and implement all these solutions whether you have source or not you may never get it released.

It’s all about time and learning… That’s why I say go for something ridiculous, because that’s the only way you truly learn.

But in the end I’d rather have every option open to me.

@ a lot of that sounds like ‘shiny’ problems though for a AAA budget to wastefully solve. If you’re focused on gameplay you can cut down your view distance for your camera and polycount in your models. Origin shifting is actually a function in unreal, but I heard it does terrible things in multiplayer, so some sort of manual rebasing method needs to be done as you would in Unity :smile:

Shadows, pfffffff. Now I’m certain you’re heading in the direction of 90% graphics, 8% story and 2% gameplay :stuck_out_tongue:

Hmm… can cryengine solve some of this for you? They seem to have some good tools for shiny-shiny. Or maybe you can have a successful idea and be taken in by a AAA company to work on it, a la Portal.

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:smile:, that really wasn’t the point. Obviously I understand UE4 can do it, world composition was one of the prime reason we investigated UE4. Also none of us have an issue doing whatever is needed, the whole point was a simple decision can have a drastic impact. As this discussion is really about game design and choosing the correct path, whether big or small…

P.S I’d never touch CE with your barge pole.