Technicalities, games as a whole!

What’s the argument? Even with 20 years as a pro developer (10 in games), until I founded Gigi I didn’t really grok how hard it was to do everything by myself! I’ve been there and back again, and now, through lots of hard-earned experience, I feel like I can see through these posts to answers.

‘Small projects’ are not a panacea. In fact, many game designs are impossible as small projects. And, it’s also true that small projects are the most efficient path toward prototypes, failing fast, and truly grokking what is needed to finish a game. Leveling up is not just a concept for players.

From my personal experience, these are dangerous words:

  • Shiny
  • Open-world
  • MMO
  • Multiplayer
  • Open-source
  • AAA
  • Cry Engine ;).

PS - We are gonna find some game design in here, right?

Gigi

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You did post a list of dangerous words that lead to much ado, and no results. Just avoiding those ought to be its own category of guidance in terms of ‘what/how to build.’ :wink:

Seriously, though, I think this discussion has yielded some useful what to build/how to build comments:

What do I build?

  • Something with a limited scope - a full-factored simulation of a fictional reality will never get done. You have to cut some stuff.
  • Something with soul - the audience can detect whether or not your heart was in what you made.
  • Something you can do - If you’re not capable of photorealistic graphics, don’t make photorealistic graphics. Make what you know how, but push yourself to learn new techniques, insofar as they don’t interfere with your production. As a rule: if you’re not absolutely sure you know how to do it, assume that you can’t, unless further research/thought proves you wrong.
  • Something with the right content density - most games have content. Give what your playtesters would consider the Goldilocks amount: not too much, but not too little; the density should be just right.

How do I build?

  • With your soul - If you don’t 100% care about something in your game, don’t do it that way. Find a way that you want to care about.

  • Iteratively - small bites at a time. Even Skyrim wasn’t written in a day (actually, it was a few years with a multi-million dollar budget, with a large team of talented, and specialized people.)

  • With a machete - Don’t be afraid to cut stuff. Scope will creep, it’s up to you to trim it the way you would your hedges: with steel shears.

  • With an eye to quality - Schedule time to functionally test your game, it will improve the result

  • With an eye to quality - Schedule time to polish your game to the best of your abilities.

  • With an eye to quality - Schedule time to let people play your game and give you feedback.

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I’m glad you listed this one first. It’s a tough idea to swallow, but almost nothing gets done with the mentality that you’re going to make a whole universe.

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Good point. I added a useful link that one that should be even more helpful.

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What argument? I could stand here all day telling people how I believe things should be done but it’s always good to collectively pool knowledge for the “greater good”.The point is time limitations, knowing the limitations of the technology you work with and placing yourself in a position to punch well above your weight.

I know factually all this is possible, you just need specific streamlined approach and the tools necessary to achieve such tasks. The dangerous words you speak of all aren’t “dangerous” if you know how…

Shiny (not difficult if you have all the tools and chase a certain aesthetic), there are certain types of games that pander to “shiny” and reduce risk.

Open-world, again it’s not difficult via procedural generation and specific toolsets to create “open world”. The difficulty there is filling this openworld with something meaningful aside from showing grand vistas. Skyrim being the operative example of this. Way too much walking for my likings…

MMO, well got to give you that one… MMO’s are “bat shit crazy” territory.

Multiplayer in a game like Unreal Tournament is pretty easy to make if the supplied tools are up to task, if were talking about MMO epics again “BSC”.

“Open Source” again, very useful if you find yourself in a situation where you need to fix a problem.

“AAA” Lot’s of discussion on this topic, they are just three letters the content is a different matter.

CryEngine, well if you’re sadistic I’m sure you’d get along just fine with it. But personally I’d do simpler things like create a ship capable of warp speed, or do a full sized replica of the empire state with lego.

A lot of this, tools, tools, tools and being smart with tools to speed up delivery in ways one wouldn’t normally think of.

Yep
I had this nice idea for an IOS game like frogger, but with a twist I dont want to mention because I came up with a new way to use it
But I had to scrap it, after realizing people would think Im just jumping on crossy road’s success.

You should have made it and then gave it to your friends :smile: See if anyone points out similarities to crossy road.

What’s wrong with ‘jumping on ABC success’? All forms of entertainment do this including movies, books, and songs - games are no exception.

Gigi

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Technical limitations are not something you want to be bumping into midstream. If that’s why you changed directions, you need to look very closely at why you missed those going in.

When scoping out a project I always look for the unknowns first, and resolve them right at the start. They generally fall into one of two categories. One is a solved problem. Maybe not solved by me before, but I know it’s solved and I move on. The other category is an unknown, at least to me. Ideally I do some quick research to find out if it’s solved. If not I might have to dig further. There are actually very few unsolved problems, so this whole process generally requires no coding at a…

I do that on every major aspect of the project until I’ve gone through the entire list. Sometimes this is a 10 minute process, sometimes it’s a few days.

So that leaves the stuff that’s not easy to anticipate that can still end up going sideways. That happens, but the above makes it happen much less often.

I also always bounce my ideas off at least one other person, ideally more. It doesn’t matter how good/experienced you are, you always miss stuff. Less experienced developers often don’t do this enough. Sometimes because they are afraid to show their ignorance, not realizing that it’s completely ok to not know something, but it’s not ok to not know and not ask.

Once you realize that basically every problem has been solved, it changes how you approach complex projects. It’s been close to a decade since I was on a project where we had to change course because of technical issues we didn’t anticipate. Not that those didn’t happen, they happen all the time, but the right process limited them to things we could overcome and move on without major course corrections.

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You can of course prepare as much as you like and in many ways it does help, not every challenge has been solved either. What happens is we trade off, problems may be solved in your project scope but not necessarily ours or anyone else’s. If you’ve managed to crack a form of realtime GI that has no impact on performance and looks good you let me know. :slight_smile:

I’ll be very open and honest, in the dawn of “next gen” I’ve been struggling with trade offs. There’s always problems and too many options. As the goal for me personally was always to make games in the vain of Bioware, whether a Mass Effect or Dragon Age game.

With that in hand, the issue really is what to do about it? I own a company but originally I was just a plain old simple graphics / engine developer. I’ve never tried to make a large game before and I’ll fully well admit that, I made a hack n’ slash which I put together in Unity 4 and it took about 3 months? THEN “slap my face” continued on towards making an Openworld RPG based on a Bioware theme. Well Unity could not handle that, the lack of 32-bit editor etc. was a massive problem. (Which I knew would be but at the time there were no other choices)…

Also GRFX, the game originally was meant to be released three years from conception so it had to look good. Or I’d be crushed by the competition as soon as it came out the door, so I ended up going down the same path as Jove ( @Aieth ) did. Four months later things were looking much better and I started to employ people to help out because it was too much for just the two of us.

About six to eight months ago the project became too large for Unity to handle and became way to complex. So that’s when we started experimenting with CryEngine and Unreal 4, CryEngine needed a specific workflow (scaleform) 3dsMax and it wasn’t worth it. Especially as it was a pain in the ass to use, lacked documentation and if you hit a specific bug in the closed engine you were up the duff without a paddle.

The release of UE4 really changed everything, we spent months upgrading Unity but it still it wasn’t enough. Workflow was sooo slow with lack of tools, I don’t trust third party providers to do it so it’s a task me and another engineer had to undertake.

So I took a break and started experimenting with Unreal 4 and soon realised we’d have to play to the engines strengths or due to performance issues release it to a niche market of powerful PC’s kind of a like Crysis, I wasn’t willing to accept that. But coming back to Unity I know for a fact would require about six months to a years work before I even began to start the game. UE4 is a scary engine and also buggy, which means releasing a game and potentially having to wade through that 2.5Million lines of source to find specific issues is a real turn off.

But I guess we’d have to come to that bridge when it comes to it, to make sure UE runs anywhere near our specified min specs we’d have to re-design the game from the ground up, which might not be a bad thing but now here I am in limbo wondering where to go next.

I’ve found that having everything planned out helps up-front, BUT… it still always boils down to… whether YOU as a person can remain interested in and committed to/enjoy the project… if you don’t, no plans in the world will help get it done. I’ve drifted away from perfectly planned out projects many times. For me personally I’ve found that I tend to flow somewhat, which means I can be really interested in something for a while, and then the flow keeps flowing and totally changes my motives and interests. I’m not decisive and rigid in that way, so that makes it hard to stick to a project. And if you try to stick to something your heart isn’t in right now, it just feels like work. You can overcome some of that with a ‘work really hard’ ethic but that’s not much fun.

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I think having milestones to achieve helps with that, actually.

I have that same problem too - I generally know what I want in one of my games, and plan up to the point where it’s better to let my creativity take over. However, I drift. A lot. And, as a tech-geek, I love working on my technology, sometimes when I should be buckling down on actually completing something.

A while back, a user called me out and said, “Hey, Asvarduil, you’re good at making tech demos…but, where’s the game?” That was my call to action - I shook myself free of the endless web of technology and enhancements and stuff and created a small-scale release that got me good feedback.

I’m about to do the same thing again. On my project, my plan thus far has been to do the world-building on one of the game’s three continents, but it’s taking forever, and my productivity is suffering. I need to do something about that. And, today on the bus, I had a plan, and it involves a small release…

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This a hundred times. I haven’t come up with a single idea, ever, that people couldn’t observe similarities to past games in.

Also, even if two people/teams were actually developing the same game concept, I’m pretty confident they’d come up with really different games.

Also also, most highly successful games have really obvious influences to anyone who’s in the know. I don’t think that there’s any correlation between high originality and high success. Or perhaps could even be that they’re inversely correlated.

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I could live with this. As much as we complain about originality the same movies always make the biggest splash at the box office.

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The main difference between AAA strudios and indies as we have come to know them is that to AAA developers it’s simply a business it’s not their dreams, they’re not making the perfect games.

This is one of the main reasons I no longer attempt to collaborate because the last time I tried I laid out all the assets that were available and told the other guy that this is what we have to work with, there is no money for anything else. We can make this type of game because we can find reasons for why these assets are there. Within 2 weeks this guy is adding features because he thinks he’s a great game designer, although he’s never actually sold a game or designed a commercial project at all, but he came from the field of dreams mentality. I shelved that project and it still hasn’t been made because when I have a basket ball and two baskets I’m pretty certain what game I have to make, I’m not going to go and buy a rugby ball to add to the basket balls because I’m pretty certain that won’t be the end of it. It is also quite possible to make an exciting game with the basket ball and the baskets, the rugby ball would add nothing to it at all.
. .
When actually making games to put food on the table and not as a hobbyist in the bedroom of a night, one soon learns how to control such stuff. I personally only play boardgames because I’ve designed so much of this crap with limited scope and boundaries etc that it’s just a job and in the same way when I worked in an office I wouldn’t fill out forms at home for pleasure I am no longer even able to play bloody games, although I keep on buying one’s that look interesting and promise myself I will get around to it.

@ - you’re actually competing with games that have not come out that you don’t even know are being made, or how they’ll look. Totally the wrong approach. In AAA necessity is the mother of invention and art is just as much part of optimisation as modelling and art is what sells these games and when making a game the art and how that can be optimised and molded to meet the projects needs is the starting point not the prohgramming. Really you should just have stuck with Unity and made it work using a bit of trickery. A lot of design stuff we now take for common was done out of necessity when first used. You should have taken the same approach. By all accounts the next gen consoles do not stand upto the PC. No one else could build a 3D engine to rival the one’s currently used by the large publishers, anyone making a game at the stage you started your project had the same limitations including resources and availability of good artists. So who exactly were you competing with that had you convinced your game would be overshadowed immediately unless you upped the fidelity of the art? Besides Unity is not AAA game engine, even Unity 5 isn’t. It’s getting there admittedly but as far as I can see for a lone developer or a small team it can deal with everything an indie should want to do with it.

The one key thing I learned working in AAA is that a game’s audience is always a statistical bell curve. There will always be a small percentage at either end with extreme opinions on the game whether that is because the assessment is deserved or the people holding the opinion are just outright insane is always a matter for debate. That realisation gives one great freedom because no matter what one does one will be criticised for it.

Plus a great many games that are follow ups are released because that is how a company can cash in on the original development costs it’s also why game series will have small additions to the engine as each new game comes out because the economics of the situation dictates the reuse of a game engine and mechanics as often as possible to amortise risk.

In my experience making games is like any other job, bloody dull. It’s why during the summer holidays I test small projects to keep my interest up.

I’m really not sure what you’re getting at here? 5%? No it doesn’t bother me, I already have to pay a much larger portion to steam, it just up’s the cost of the game to cover it. Simple as that…

I’m in a fortunate position, where I can make a loss on our first game by a certain percentage and it doesn’t mean a lot. By promotion of said game over a time period, we can then go on to build another and then hopefully break even or make a profit. I have no investors, loans or anything to worry about…

Building games that matches well known titles of yesteryear is difficult in Unity, the cost in man hours offsets any benefit to using it for basic stuff. UE is a complete package end to end, iteration is much faster with masses of superior toolsets and it’s graphically at the level we need it to be out the box. I prefer Unity, it’s far more intuitive yada yada, but it’s the wrong tool for the job at hand. (Not to say we don’t use it for other stuff).

But again, I’m not sure what your point is really? Myself and quite a few other team members worked for AAA companies, from engine development to art so it’s not a lack of experience or understanding that’s the driver.

Anyway, we have since scaled back the game and decided to take a different approach in areas and plan to have a demo released in 6-8 months.

Ok, my apologies, bit of misunderstanding there. I wasn’t suggesting you should stay with Unity, I’ve just never been in a situation where I could change course and switch engines partway through and delay development. Always had to use and make do with what I was given. Basically always worked with a limited budget and spent quite some time polishing turds. Clearly not a situation you’re in so none of that is a consideration, best tool for the job is always top trump anyway.

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@sicga123_1 It’s no problem, it’s great to be in a relaxed position and not having to polish a brownie :)…

@AndrewGrayGames

Let’s get my bullet point ON! Yeeeahh!

  • The type of game heavily dictates complexity, technology and challenges.
  • Segmentation can seriously help in shinies, a game doesn’t have to be small but if it’s well segmented you have the option to use lightmaps, which heavily helps performance, graphical super shinies etc.
  • AAA is a misnomer, as bullet points above describe. It’s nothing to do with the gas giants, it’s about the game and the studio behind it. Which can make it a good game a bad game, a shitty looking game or a graphical marvel.
  • Knowing when too much, is well TOO MUCH. I see a lot of games with artwork stuck in for the sake of artwork, it’s jam packed full of detail and it has the opposite effect of what was intended it just looks cluttered. Imagine how many hours they wasted! :smile:
  • Bigger teams aren’t always better, in fact they are generally very in-efficient… People often trip on others toe’s, dream about what they’re eating for lunch, some lack skill, don’t communicate, management makes awful decisions, red tape and of course. MEETINGS about DAMN MEETINGS!.
  • Learning tools is much faster than building tools.
  • Block outs with shiny materials help you understand layouts much better than the plop and drop methodology way of working.
  • Bullet points are cool.!

I hope this thread might now start making a basic level of sense. (maybe)…! :slight_smile:

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@ - Yes, bullet points are most awesome. Now, if only I could write a bullet point that produced other self-replicating bullet-points…

On AAA - You’re absolutely right that the name has to do with the studio and less what they produce. That being said, to the audience, and less experienced developers like me, there’s the additional point that “AAA” is synonymous with certain expectations of visual fidelity and length. Visual fidelity is hard, and costly to produce. Length always sucks, because you’re either making content, which is hard and expensive, or you’re exploiting filler, which overdone comes off as lazy. Just see Dragon Age Inquisition for an example of both in action at the same time. It’s beautiful, and long, and you know it took a bunch of people a long time to make with blood, sweat, and tears, all of which are probably 90%+ Mountain Dew. I suspect that Lyrium in the Dragon Age universe might be inspired by it, but that’s a personal guess.

Back on topic - in my lengthy post/pseudo-rant above, I don’t mean to “attack AAA”, I hold that segment of the industry in the best regard - I want to match and find ways to surpass your skills and output within my professional lifetime, and I’m already finding ways to do just that. I just fail to see how the current expectations of, and methods of delivering on, a AAA title can possibly be sustained on the current scale, let alone that of the ‘console golden age’ of the 1990s to mid 2000s, even five years into the future. One way or another, “The AAA Way” is crushing itself under its own weight, and that’s something no amount of spin can undo; it’s already started and progressed to a decent degree. For the sake of professionals like you - let alone my own business aspirations going forward - I hope means of averting this can be found, and a renaissance of top-notch, high-value games created by seasoned veterans of the industry can come about. Devaluement of games bodes ill for all of us who want to participate in this industry. That’s all I’m trying to say with that.

Anyways, on my current project, I’m seeing many of your bullet points in action. What I’ve done for both performance, and ease of development, is taking a ‘large’ scene (it could be my continent, or something smaller like a forest), and segmenting it certain ways that lends itself well to mesh/texture batching - especially mesh batching, because I’m using pretty much UV unwrapped cubes to define the geometry of my levels, similar to what I did in The Hero’s Journey but with fewer vertices, and a more consistent art style. Working on multi-floor maps, like Nuuria Castle and the Generic Church scene, it’s also a blessing because it lets me organize geometry, doodads, triggers, and other stuff on a floor-by-floor level. It seems to my unstudied eye like a generally good idea, that I berate myself for not realizing sooner.

On content density I have only this to say: if your scene can compete with Mr. T’s neck chains for a random passerby’s attention, you’ve overloaded your scene a bit. Where’s that machete?

Finally, something I did this week that’s helping is using existing things to speed up the process. I’d all but forgotten that I’d bought the First Fantasy asset pack on the asset store…it’s loaded with useful particle effects and doodads. I’m way too fond of rolling my own; sometimes shelling out a bit of money for a speed advantage is a very good thing. I need to do that more often, I’d be selling more games that way.

@ - Yes, sure. AAA isn’t really the size it’s the professionalism of the team. If you’ve worked making games of any type as a hired hand i.e. paid a salary to make a game, whether art or programming then you’re in that AAA club (obviously this statement isn’t 100% true in every situation, but it’s a fair generalisation). I’ve never managed to complete a collaboration with anyone that has never worked in the industry because too much time is spent explaining the process in detail, almost as bad as having to manage above which I’ve seen done before.

It is definitely better to use tools already built than roll your own. I never understood the logic of people who prefer making their own but are also using a game engine built by someone else.