The Need for Skilled Designers

News & General Discussion
1

There is a lot of taboo around the concept of the “idea guys” in the game industry (specifically the indie game industry). I will agree that ideas are not enough to give someone value, but this often also casts a shadow over the “game designer” role in the industry.

So, the purpose of this post is not only to identify the role of a designer, but to also emphasize their value.

First, I will “toot my own horn” for a moment and make the claim that I am a fairly talented designer. I’m only comfortable saying that though, because I have also met (and worked with) people who have been far better than myself.

Ages ago, I was designing a card game. In my design, there were combat elements that also involved rolling dice. A fellow designer pointed out to me that the core concept of card games is the random draw of cards. He said that adding the random outcome of dice to the game would remove almost all aspects of strategy. This was such good advice that I’ve remembered it to this day, and it has forced me to always analyze how much control I’m giving my players in strategy games.

Now, I’ve recently been working on an interactive timeline that spans approximately 24 billion years. I knew this would be a daunting task, not only in content, but also in design. I had created mock-ups, developed filters so not every event on the timeline would need to be displayed at once, etc.

As much as I had gone over the design, I thought I had all my bases covered. With nearly all of the functionality built, I am in the process of adding in the content. Only now, I’ve discovered a major issue in the design.

Events are displayed by small, 30x30 pixel dots across the bottom of the screen. So let’s do the math:

  • If you have a 1024 wide screen, this will allow room for about 34 dots. (1024/30=34)
  • Across 24 billion years, this means that the width of one dot is equal to 705,882,352 years. (24 billion/34)

To put this into perspective, dinosaurs roamed the earth 245 million years ago… I’m no history major, but I’m pretty sure there’s been more than one significant event since then. This isn’t a minor mistake that can be fixed with some “tweaking”.

Now, I’m sure you’re thinking, “well yeah, that’s obvious”. Sure, its obvious now. It was obvious to me when I discovered it too. But when you’re working to cover a hundred different angles, these “minor” issues can easily sneak by.

So! Who do you have on your team with experience in this area who will be responsible for making sure these issues don’t cripple your development halfway through? Your programmer? Your 3d Artist? Not likely.

Designers are not the same as “idea guys”. They are vital to any solid game/project, and, like any other role on your team, finding a skilled designer is incredibly difficult.

2

Time is symmetric but events deemed important to your game aren’t, scale the time based on how many events are nearby. So the first 10 billions years of the big bang are very short on the scale but as the universe evolves to the earth the scale stretches to adjust to the high frequency of events. e.g. if you look at the geological time epochs the very first time line presented is very short: in fact they stretch it out more just to be able to spell the name of the epoch as to put conjectored events on the epoch’s time line.

3

This is something I’ve considered. Obviously, looking at the timeline, there is the “Big Bang”, followed by a long emptiness with a couple “galaxy X is formed”. Then it becomes ridiculously crowded once life rears its ugly head.

This would actually be backed up by some quantum theories that, over time (as the universe expands), time actually flows faster. However, from the standard “layman” point of view, it could be a bit confusing.

I’m considering just having the timeline scroll left and right, but that also seems like a poor hack job. It would, however, involve a lot less rewriting than other solutions might.

(Also important in solid design; making sure its intuitive and makes sense to the “average joe”.)

4

It’s been a long time but I remember in Kindergarten we had construction paper cut outs of Indian boys hopping around on the numberline so maybe if you approached the timeline as a simplied active part of game play with say, a ‘Dr. Who’ type left to right teleportation on the timeline and a ‘blurred’ fastforward scrolling with the timeline with a few ‘banf’ Nightcrawler (the X-Men one) teleportation sulfur clouds you can make creating it a bit of fun instead of drudgery.

But I’m prone to ramble at times but I haven’t seen that approach in a game as a cut scene element (or something you’d could turn on or off for info a the bottom of the screen). I don’t play many games though.

5

Nope - in fact, what so interesting about dinosaurs?

If you’re measuring time in a completely linear, 700Mn year steps than life as we know it is irrelevant. What is interesting is the creation and destruction of stars and galaxies.

If you wish to show the universe in terms that are interesting to humans - than you need a non linear representation of time.

The big thing I see with your plan is you keep forgetting to maintain perspective. At the end of the day there’s no difference between recording 24Bn years or 24s - both an be recorded in little detail or incredible detail, both can be interesting and engaging or boring and nonsensical.

Actually, in this case your programmer should certainly pick this up [otherwise hire a bag of salt - it’s worth more], and an involved artist should also pick up on this. Why? Because it’s their job to actually take the ‘idea’ and figure out how to implement it - which means ‘visualising’ how it could work.

So no, this isn’t a designer saving the day but the designer making a fairly rookie assumption, and then noticing it.

That said, I do see a need for skilled game designers - I have plenty of work for 'em. The problem is if you’re any good at game design you’ve usually off making successful games…

6

The human perspective is to experience time in a linear fashion.

Also, I’m making the timeline to tell a specific story, and dinosaurs are very important to this story.

Finally, I am the Programmer… and the Artist… and the Designer

7

Nope.

We do not experience time in a linear fashion, nor do we [by and large] reason about time in a linear fashion.

8

Ok, I’ve studied a lot of theoretical physics, and quantum theory. I’m very aware of how the human brain perceives time, as well as how it actually/theoretically works. (I particularly like the concept that the universe never “exploded” in the common sense of the term. Rather, the concept of time/space simply began to expand rapidly, and we’re all actually still living inside that original singularity.) nerd flex!

I’m talking about your average Joe who thinks “I woke up. THEN. I went to work. THEN. I went home.” etc, etc.

9

Exactly - someone who does not experience time in a linear fashion.

Think about it for a few mins.

10

I’m not sure how realising you can’t meaningfully represent the entire history of the universe in 1024x1 pixels of space makes you a good designer or highlights the role of a good designer. That one should have been kinda self-evident.

The good designer would spot this early on and look for good ways around it (such as a graph with exponentially shorter denominations).

11

Psychologically speaking humans are wired more for a logarithmic understanding of numbers and time than a linear understanding. We viciously beat this logarithmic understanding out of humans starting in grade school and replace it with working towards a mastery of a linear number system.

But we still tend to think logarithmically at a base level. If you were to ask many of us what the difference is between a week and a month, most would answer in terms of grouping or logarithmically. Such as a month is 4 times as long as a week. not many would give a linear answer of a month is 23.4 days longer than a week.
Also, which is a more common likelihood in conversation: That line had 13 more people than that one -or- that line was 3 times as long ?
If we had a perfect grasp of linear numbers, it could be argued that the larger spans of time would not be as unfathomable as they are. We would know exactly the difference between 1 billion years and 1 million years. We would be able to fathom the difference in the amount of time between a century and a millenium. Why are these huge spans of time so “mind blowing”? Because they are. When looked at with our natural logarithmic brain these large numbers blow out of scope of comprehension on a logarithmic curve.

12

I suspected someone would chime in with the “well yeah, that’s obvious”, response. And for the record, its 1024x150, and yes, its is stacked/staggered. I also said that I designed several filters so that the entirety of the timeline is never being displayed all at once. Unfortunately, these precautions weren’t nearly effective enough. What I didn’t count on was the grouping.

Kinda the point of the post. Thanks for reiterating. (and without any pretentious sarcasm…)

13

What is the point of this topic? First you say you are a good designer then kind of tear yourself apart by saying you missed a major flaw… and then decide to say that anyone can make mistakes like this?

Not trying to be rude I just don’t get what the whole point of this is?

I don’t see how time is not linear, we invented it in a linear way, really we just made time as a way of defining how things have changed(I want to put over time there but that ruins it)

14

Our perception of time is not linear though.
Think of your memories. It is easy to order recent memories in a linear order. It gets increasingly difficult to put much older memories in a linear order. You reach some point of saying these are early childhood memories, these are teenage memories, etc… So on the whole they can be grouped, and the groups can be linearly ordered. But the memories themselves are not necessarily linearly ordered within those groups.
Even within recent memories we do not perceive a linearity at an extremely fine detail. We can order major groups of time in our recollections, but most people can not and do not perceive things in a strictly linear progression of time. Think of your own perceptions of how long it feels to eat or drive to work/school or check your email or check your farmville crops. For me, those activities can all be the exact same length of recorded time, yet feel like completely different rates of passage of time.

15

My perception of time is relative. The ruler I use to measure time in my head changes on a frequent basis. One year no longer seems as long to wait as it did, say 20 years ago. When I was 8 years old 3 months seemed like 3 years to me. When I was 28, 3 months seems like 1 month to me now.

And on a slight tangent:

Time has velocity (in perception terms at least) so I wonder if I lived for 969 years, would it only seem like 100ish years and therefore not worth aiming to live as long as Methuselah?

16

All he wanted was to tell us that good designers are people who are worth having on a team, and how difficult it is to be one. and ya tear his post apart. it literally turns into a disturbingly off topic debate about the perception of something. debating… about… perception… let that one sink in, go ahead. ill wait.

now that we’ve thought about that, lets remind ourselves that by doing a quick sidestep of a general point that someone is making, to obsessively critique a non-essential inane detail, is not only asinine, but rather rude. it also lacks… perspective.

believe it or not, he wasn’t actually asking for your perception of perception of time. he was merely citing an example of where he himself can grow to be more thorough. perhaps the only valid responses would have been other designers coming on and sharing lessons that they have learned and methods of thinking and practical technique to avoiding typical design pitfalls, or just great anecdotes upon the foibles of being someone responsible for making a cohesive experience for a player, which in my opinion, does take someone talented to do, because among a sea of fantastic sounding ideas, that inevitably come up (tell me you haven’t been in on THOSE brainstorms) the designer is the one who looks at everything all at once to make sure that every idea that makes it in is beneficial to the end goal. that means a lot of really awesome stuff just ending up on the cutting floor. that means pissing off that one artist who finally felt like he could get up the courage to share his idea, then its dashed to the ground, because while its great, the game just does not call for George Washington to have an AK-47… ok maybe thats not great. bad example. (TROLL: “BUT WOULDN"T HE HAVE MUSKETSSSS??? THIS GUY JUST LOST ALL CREDIBILITY IN MY EYES FOR SURE… I BET THIS IDIOT GOING ON ABOUT OUR FOUNDING FATHERS HAVING INACCURATE WEAPONRY AND THE ORIGINAL POSTER PROBLY KNOW EACH OTHER, CUZ THEY GOTS THE SAME KINNA STUPIDS.”)

oh, and the bit about Methuselah made me happy. just so you know. just cuz no one talks about Methuselah.

17

Correct. However in the process he:

  • Gives an example that does himself disservice as a game designer.
  • Misunderstands to the point of insult the capabilities of others on the team to help notice and correct this mistake.
  • After being corrected, still fails to grasp the fundamental error in his assumptions.

Now I have no problems with khanstruct - and have invested several hours of my time [both on the forums and off] in helping him understand and achieve his goals. However, what he said isn’t what he intended to say - which isn’t a good sign from someone trying to sell the role of ‘designer’. So no, the critique of his post isn’t ‘inane detail’ but important and constructive information regarding the role - both in his specific case and in more general settings.

The discussion of time is off topic in terms of the key point- ‘need for skilled designers’ but directly relevant to the example given in the topic. Understanding the implications of linear vs nonlinear representation of time is vital gaging the issue at hand.

What I do find annoying is people who jump into a thread, notice a discussion and immediately jump into hyper-defensive mode without understanding what’s going on. In your incredibly inaccurate example - the best equivalent would be a game designer making a period accurate game featuring Lincoln AK-47 as the main protagonist. Such a fundamental and obvious error would immediately reduce the credibility of the game designer.

18

I may not understand the concept of perception of time, but I can see when a topic has gone of on a tangent.

19

Design is something that I’ve learned the other way - by seeing my mistakes come to light.

By education, I am a programmer. I’m great at writing code, creating algorithms, all the things that a game needs in order for it to know what to do next. Creating a fun experience is something I find more challenging, because code is only one facet of the greater endeavor; aesthetics have to be considered, as do story and mechanics. In short: The Lens of the Elemental Tetrad.

My first game, SHMUP: Orbital Combat was a rather poor design. First I made the mistake of trying to use a “Sandbox” strategy to simplify the amount of work I needed to do. I quickly found out that is a wrong mindset - it’s not about what we the designer/developer do, it’s about what the player experiences. So, while I had some rather commonplace mechanics - finding pickups to improve abilities, defeating fighters to improve after-mission rank -I gave my player no goal. I soon heard about it.

My second game, Zombies vs. Knights was probably a fundamentally bad idea for me, because I really don’t enjoy strategy games, but I somehow took some inspiration from WarCraft III. My dislike of the strategy genre rubbed through to my design - I tried to aggressively remove all elements I didn’t feel were necessary, like direct control of movements, which was what fundamentally turned players off to it. In the strategy genre, it is expected to be able to micromanage units.

While I had some of my more interesting mechanics involved (the Lich and Paladin would auto-resurrect after death if their phylactery/spirit was not destroyed, ghouls could be detonated for AOE damage, while Paladins could perform an AOE heal for a modest resource cost), I ‘oversimplified’ it…or rather, by removing direct control, crippled the abilities of the player to determine their own outcome. Again, I soon heard about it.

Let’s contrast. One of my projects that failed at the last minute, Onslaught of the Laser Cat, was a rather quirky FPS. Again, FPS wasn’t a genre that I typically play/enjoy, but I like FPS way better than strategy games! Instead of going maverick and trying to lobotomize the genre (something I learned from Zombies vs. Knights was a terrible idea), I went a more traditional route, but threw some twists for my players. Specifically, guns would open doors that nearly matched their color, there were achievements for various actions that awarded new weapons, I had an anti-spawncamping system inherent in the level design, and then…the Laser Cat who could be either an objective or the ultimate griefer, depending on the gameplay scenario.

Players loved it - MrSmive even meshed/textured the weapons and level pieces at no cost! It failed because I screwed up how I implemented the scoreboard system. For once I had a successful design that was just traditional enough to understand, while innovative enough for players to enjoy! However, my design failed me once more, but from the point I would consider my strongest: technology.

So, why am I talking about how I’ve failed? Because it’s proved very enlightening, to me. I’ve not found any really great tools for learning design (GigiWoo2 showed me The Art of Game Design - A Book of Lenses, which was by far the best).

I would argue that, yes, skilled designers are needed, absolutely. However, those skilled designers also need to be actively involved in training the next generation (i.e. me) about cool ways to do design. Anyone can do what I’ve just talked about, and start finding the dead-ends in the hypothetical maze of game design. What novices like me - and others out there - need are ways to figure out what the right ways are, from what the wrong ways are.

20

Alright, let me clarify my original post.

First, while I do believe myself to be a skilled designer, I’m no Will Wright, let alone am I infallible. In the example I gave, I had understood what the challenges would be, but had missed some key aspects to it (the coagulation of events around certain eras). It was an area where I had made a mistake as a designer (and hopefully learned and grown), but that was not the point of the post.

I was using that mistake as an example of why skilled designers are important in the development process. The fact that it was my mistake is irrelevant.

While I appreciate the advice from others on the specifics, and certainly love intelligent conversation on such topics as time and perception, that was really a byproduct of the conversation. Please, feel free to continue discussing it.