An interesting question has popped up in another thread.
What types of games should be combined?
The MOBA genre itself came from combining many game types into one. The genre took off and is now one of the most copied in the business.
But when have you gone too far and when are you a genius?
I have seen a side scroller 2d mmo. Now this would not be my thing but I see it has many playing it.
Many of us have elements of other game types within our main games but lets explore combining game types.
I donât think thereâs any pat answer to this. Youâre a genius if the result is fun; if people hate it, then youâre not a genius.
Not very helpful, I know, but I think thatâs maybe all that can be said in general⌠beyond that, weâd have to get into specifics.
I guess when I think about it, High Frontier combines elements of the city sim with elements of economic development (like the Tycoon games) and elements of whatever you would call KSP (a CAD game?). I think that works for us. But I wouldnât throw a FPS or MMO into the mix.
Well, yeah, KSPâs (partly) a sandbox game, but thatâs a really generic term â I mean, so are pretty much all the Sim games (and so is High Frontier, for that matter). AFAIK, sandbox could apply to any game where there isnât a clearly defined objective, but instead you have the freedom to just noodle around and create whatever you want.
In all seriousness, no. Even the most basic genre is still full of possibility, combining them is ok sometimes, but like Avril said itâs all been done before.
Well, the only thing the game does is hand you several tons of rocket parts and vaguely points upward, as if that might be the direction you want to go in, so I would mostly call it sandbox until they really ramp up the tycoon elements.
Back to the topic⌠kinda. Hereâs the negative side to crossing genres without actually understanding them.
I have thought for a long time my ultimate game to make one day will combine many different genres. Youâd begin perhaps in a top down view driving game rushing to reach a certaind destination within a time limit. Once there youâd enter a building or so forth and when you popped out youâd be in a platform game. At the end of the long level youâd get in a chopper and end up in a side scrolling shooter with emphasis on rescuing people (kinda like chop lifter actually). Complete that and youâll go back in top down mode in a stealth strategy game to get the team (you and rescued scientists or whatever) through the area collecting something. Then youâd reach an underground dock and enter a sub. Now you are in the ocean depths exploring. And so on. I think such a multi genre experience would excel at story telling.
Square Enix says that theyâll never make a Final Fantasy 7 remake by todayâs standards because thereâs no way they could afford it. Thatâs why weâve got these linear tiny scope RPGs these days.
I remember reading in a Stephen King book that he thought Apocalypse Now would it go down in history as a big mistake because of the size of the budget and that movie makers would probably never go for budgets like that again. Now we see movies with a hundred times that budget.
Meh. I guess I tire of YouTube douchery. Make a game or shut it. Thatâs what I think about so-called experts like Extra Credits and this guy. Presents opinion as fact.
I mean, if there was no upgrading what would people say? Yep. So and so game has upgrading, so this game has a lack of depth, etc. Ultimately I think the AAA developers with their assembly line of virtually indistinguishable games have painted themselves into a bit of a corner.
And I donât understand why intelligent adults canât understand that stats are not a role-playing element⌠otherwise NBA JAM was an RPG.
One thing I noticed the last time I played FF7, It was really ambitious. Just the materia system and the arena that can just rip out whole chunks of it is more complicated than just about all of 13 (okay, Iâm probably being mean to it, but Iâm only 5 hours in and itâs just ulcer inducing). Who knows what Squenix is thinking though, they already ported DQ8 to unity, but clearly no one told management that they could just port it to every platform known to man in a week. /rant
I wouldnât say you shouldnât combine genres, but thatâs not what youâre doing. What you are really doing is combining mechanics and elements that usually arenât thought of as typically associated. Even saying MOBAâs are a genrebender (try to get that image out of your head) is a bit of a misnomer. DotA could just as easily have used diablo as a base instead of warcraft and it wouldnât have been that different. Hell, turning warcraft into diablo was probably the point of DotA.
All good points guys. I was thinking more along the lines on ideaâs like a wizard 101. I am not the big fan since itâs for kids but still it combines sandbox RPG with card game.
Also, genres are subjective. You could argue Terraria isnât a âMinecraft-likeâ at all, but that itâs a sidescrolling action platformer with Metroidvania and RPG elements, but that sure is a mouthful.
Iâll read it. Later. Genres, if I may be so bold⌠genres are kind of b.s. I mean, who the hell really cares? Iâm not trying to start an argument. Itâs not the genre that defines what we as designers attempt to do, at all. Genre be damned. There are certain gameplay elements that simply do not work together, or that do. Comedy and horror can be combined in a movie⌠yet some would attempt to place them into a genre. Comedy/Horror. Okay, so I think we spend entirely too much time worrying about what are essentially tools for organizing videos at Blockbuster in the 90âs or today on Netflix so people can search by section, if theyâre too dull-witted to find another way of learning about new films to watch. Itâs no different with games. I think as an Indie developer you donât even have to concern yourself with genre definitions because for someone to hear about your game at all is marvelous, and itâs going to be by an article or word of mouth not by searching âFPS/RPGâ and then looking at page 7 on the results where they will click on your game for some unknown reason.
Yes, I ramble. But if you donât read it⌠your loss.
Searching by section isnât what designers are worrying about.
Players have expectations and (usually) a very short attention span. Most players I know will give less than a minute to a game. After they (think they) have identified what genre the game belongs to, they will decide whether to push further (or hit the home button).
The trouble starts when they push a little further and start using their mental frame to play your game. A game borrowing features from another genre (than what the player identifies the game with, never mind what the designer intended) is asking the player to think out of the box (or hit the home button).
I might describe my first game as a kind of 3D visual novel with adventure (aka âpuzzleâ) elements. Now, because it had dpad controls a lot of players thought it was something else, so they skipped all the dialogs and got stuck 20% in. Too bad for them and getting stuck early on doesnât necessarily yield bad reviews but not a result Iâm especially proud of.
And the worse is? Popular games set standards for what players will expect in a game. If a game doesnât fit, players are much less likely to engage with it and give it a decent try. A couple years back I would go around demoing my game and people would stare at me blankly and ask âDo you have Temple Run?â. So, in 2012 lots of casual players would think about games in terms of how they compare with Temple Run.
Iâd like to tell you that indies donât need to worry about genres since weâre making games for⌠for whom? âsuper-educated gamersâ? game critiques? Honestly I feel happy when my family and friends (of friends) even bother trying out my games. The next game jam isnât one hour drive away.
Iâm 100% for combining genres - even better, trying to escape categorisations and cherry-picking features. However it needs to be done with a lot of care. Not just making sure that the design actually works, but understanding (through testing and re-designing, mostly) how players will engage with your design.
More like a patchwork of genres than a smooth blend, but for this reason it can work very nicely.
Sorry, didnât mean to derail this thread. Meta: wrote this upon reading a comment that later was deleted by a mod, or by its author(?). Not being apologetic about my contribution to this thread.
This is what stood out to me. Thatâs what Iâm responding to, in large part. If youâre having that much trouble getting and keeping playerâs attention, you simply must rethink your strategy.
Here, you call (inadvertently) most gamers uneducated. Itâs not the consumerâs job to research which games are worth playing. Itâs your job to tell them. People do judge books by the cover. This wonât ever change.
No point in looking down your nose at them. Theyâre just going to find someone who will gladly cater to them.
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Does this have anything to do with genres?
Sure. K.I.S.S. They expect action games to have action, Puzzle games to have puzzles. I think itâs ironic that you lament people not responding to your games how you desire, while advocating the cause of your troubles.
