Hi there! After successfully completing a robot model on 3ds Max, I remembered that back in the day there was a program called Zbrush that seemed to cater more towards creating “organic” models. I looked up Zbrush again recently and after making some comparisons between it and 3ds Max, it really does seem that Zbrush beats 3ds Max when it comes to making organic models (like musclebound monsters, trees with detailed imperfections and the like), while 3ds Max beats Zbrush when it comes to creating mechanical stuff.
Anyway, has anybody here experienced using Zbrush for making a character in a Unity game? It seems that the models from Zbrush contain too much polygons, is there a way to make them have lower polygons? What about animation, can you animate them in Zbrush or did you have to use 3ds Max or another program to animate the character you made for use in Unity? Are there any more advantages or disadvantages? Oh, and is it possible to apply this new “substance” format (from Substance Designer program) on Zbrush models?
Thanks in advance, I just need to hear the opinions of those who have used Zbrush before I invest in it:)
Indeed the zbrush models are too high in polygon count. You need to retopologize the mesh to have lower polygons. Then use a baked map from the high detailed version onto the low poly model. Zbrush has a retopologize plugin, called decimationmaster.
But there are other ways to lower the poly count, so you get a low poly mesh from the high detailed.
Most large games use ZBrush at some point in their pipeline now days. There are two ways you can utilize it:
Create your base mesh in 3ds Max then bring it into ZBrush for sculpting. Then use the MultiMap Exporter plugin to export your normal map/diffuse/AO/etc maps along w/ a modified base mesh.
Start sculpting in ZBrush then retopologize using ZBrush/Max/whatever, then bake across your maps using ZBrush or xNormal.
For non-animated stuff, you can use ZBrush’s Decimation Master to reduce polycount and it works pretty well. You usually don’t want to use DM it on stuff that will be animated because the generated topology won’t be animator friendly.
I have never once regretted buying ZBrush, it’s an awesome piece of software and so far every new version has been free to licensees.
As for using it with Substances, there’s no direct integration, but if you lay out your UVs properly then you can use Substances in Unity w/ ZBrush created models just fine.
ZBrush doesn’t do bone based animation, so you’ll still have to do that in your modeling program.
Ah thanks for the replies everyone, now I have an idea of how things will flow, now I just need to find some training material to learn it properly, thanks again
Hmm I just discovered Mudbox and found out that it’s also from Autodesk. It seems to have the same features as Zbrush from that video I saw on youtube. I guess 3ds Max and Mudbox should work better together than 3ds Max and Zbrush :o
not true adeno, mudbox is not even close to Zbrush in features/control. Mudbox is a “simple” sculpting tool, where zbrush is a complex able sculpting tool with years of experience. Zbrush is still the defacto in major studios, because of it’s features and precise control.
Adding to that, zbrush has build in support to sync files between 3dmax/maya and many others and zbrush (both ways) build in called GoZ.
Don´t be fooled by advertising stuff autodesk publishes, ask the real users for their opinions (as i did)
ZBrush is a really amazing software, I’ve been using Max for almost 10 years - got ZBrush a few weeks ago and been glued to it.
ZBrush lacks a few things and there is a pretty decent learning curve to make anything high quality but it all makes sense the longer you use it. The beta testers of every new version have a huge amount of input on the direction of development and its resulted in some really cool additions that dont make any sense and are even annoying until you realize why they are there, then the lightbulb goes off in your head and everything works perfectly.
It crashes much more often than other software but its 1/3rd of the price and can make GORGEOUS models. It’s the tool to have if you want to make organic models. Decimation Master is a great tool if you can control it but it can ruin your edgeloops. The effects are like reverse tesselation which is fine for hard surface but for animated organics its really bad. I have not tested if you can use any edge preservations in DM.
You definitely need another application like Max or Maya (more commonly used) to finish anything out. It’s really hard to control edgeloops in the early stages of learning the software so importing a base mesh with good loops is critical and you need to export all the mapping and such when you’re done working in zbrush so you can finalize in max/maya. It’s not a turn-key solution like its competitors but it is nearly a mandatory addition to serious developers and their workflow after considering its benefits.
indeed no…
Sculptris is also a simple/entry level scultping tool (lacks many brushes, precision controls, options etc), whereas zbrush is a full blown toolset. (hence why sculptris is free and zbrush costs)
Zbrush is by far better than both mudbox and sculptris.
You can do some nice things in both mudbox and sculptris, however not as detailed as zbrush can.
Anyway I just decided to invest in Zbrush 4 since it’s been used in a lot of games (I can only think of one game as of now, called Alan Wake, that used Mudbox) and I found a nice video training program for it.
I actually find Zbrush quite relaxing to use. It reminds me how I used to play with flour and clay when I was a kid lol! I’ve only gotten up to the point in the Lynda training vid’s 2nd chapter where it tells you about how to use a “shadowbox” to create shapes that would be harder to do with Zspheres but I’m already having lots of fun with the program!
Once I grasped the concept of the shadowbox (or at least how I think it works as of my study), I tried making a chest armor, just like what you’d see in most rpgs and even the “Space Armor” from Dragonball Z shows. It was actually easy to do, since with a shadowbox you can draw a base for the back side (like just the shape, for example the basic outline/shape of a person’s back) and from a side view (you draw how you would see the person’s chest from the side and the belly from here) and you’d get a 3d shape of the combined “back” and “side” parts as the finished product.
Since I already had the basic chest shape, all I had to do was imagine the details of what a chest armor would have in its proper places, so I just changed the “Draw Size” (or for some reason I keep thinking brush size) depending on how much I wanted to affect the area that I was “raising” or “lowering”. I also activated the symmetry thing (or asymmetry) by pressing the X key to save time and have consistency on the areas that I knew should be the same. This “modify at the same time” feature actually saves a lot of time and keeps the whole thing enjoyable, you can even add more uhm… “red spots” so you’ll have more of the same stuff you’re doing happening at the same time.
As I finished the chest, I decided to play around some more, raising other parts, making bulges and all sorts of stuff until I realized I was making a musclebound dragon mutant man. The chest, which used to be something like a typical roman chest armor, became something like an exoskeleton. The head, I somewhat fashioned it after that dragon from the Dragonball show. The back, I gave it a “mutant feel” just like what monsters had in the game called “Prototype”. The arms, I got the idea from that bodybuilder who used too much steroids that his arms literally got ripped open. The wormy things, they were just little experiments using the “move” thing that pulled out Zpheres. I just gave the monster some wounds all over its body because I wanted it to be a little gross.
When I was done playing with my little monster, I just skipped the training vid to the painting part just to have a feel for it. It’s the first time I heard about “Polypaint” and that you had to click “Colorize” and then the “Rgb” button at the top before you could paint lol!
Anyway, here’s the result of my 5 minutes of fooling around.
I really enjoy the feel of Zbrush so far. I hope that as I continue the training vid from chapter 2 and onwards, it’ll remain fun to use. Too bad it seems that I’ll have to use 3ds Max to create the base mesh when it seems possible to simply just make something in Zbrush easily right away, especially if I’m not making “mechanical” models in the first place.
I better learn more and probably read a few art books about drawing, anatomy, and the like lol:)
Understanding muscle structure is pretty important in making organic models, even simple plain ones and faces. Try to make longer thin muscles at first since its easy to overestimate the size and shape of things.
I’ve kind of settled on using really strong and harsh brushes. Clay, Clay buildup, Clay tubes along with Smooth Stronger and Polish… I really havent run into much i couldnt clean up. And always remember you can fix anything so dont be afraid to make big changes and demolish them quick with strong smooth brushes or whatever to get ideas out there and onto the model. Getting stuck on details can really slow you down a lot if you’re not familiar with the program. Remember for every brush there is positive and negative, so if you screw something up just hit alt and put it back in.
There are some REALLY nice free official video tutorials from Pixologic on their main site, i recommend checking them out.
Hard surface stuff is another world… getting the polygroups right is tough and there isnt as much support as I’d like to see for it yet but they have improved the hard surface side of things much since the last release so be grateful =). You can always import a bunch of controlled shapes from max or something and build off of those, thats what i plan to do for much of my hard surface modelling in Zbrush…
Zspheres offer alot when building organic base meshes, dont ignore them =)
As others have said, Sculptris doesn’t come close.
OP You made the right choice with ZBrush. I’ve used ZBrush, Sculptris and Mudbox and ZBrush is far ahead in the game and ZBrush 4R2 will be released September 20th, bringing new enhancements.
If you haven’t got this already, be sure to use a Wacom with ZBrush and take time to create custom shortcut keys, its great being able to sculpt and never having to touch the keyboard.
As for a workflow, although others have already gave ideas, here is what I do:
Model a base mesh in Maya
Use GoZ (free plugin on ZBrush’s site) to send it from Maya to ZBrush
Sculpt high res detail into the mesh and polypaint
Generate color, normal, specular, and whatever else maps in ZBrush
(This is where everyone gasps in horror) I then use those maps on my low res model in Maya if its an animated character. If its not an animated character I use Decimation Master in ZBrush and use that mesh.
Also you can use ZSpheres to create a low poly mesh in ZBrush instead of making it in Maya or Max first.
I used Zbrush for all of my characters for my game. Make a low poly base mesh in maya, 3ds max, blender or whatever 3d program you want. This allows you to control exactly how high or low you want the polycount. Bring the model into Zbrush, subdivide up to 5 or 6, sculpt and then texture with polypaint. Take texture map from polypaint while on highest subdivision, then drop down to lowest subdivision and make the normal map. Lowest subdivision will be the original low poly mesh, with small changes based on the sculpting. It is this mesh that you use in your game, you use the normal map to save the high poly details and it looks good. You don’t use the high poly mesh from zbrush because yea, that would be way too high poly. You can retopo like they said above, but if you make a low poly model to begin with I feel like it is easier. You can also make a low poly model right in zbrush using zspheres which is extremely fast. Good luck to you.
edit: I just read the post above me and he said exactly what I said. My bad lol
I would really recommend learning ZBrush from digitaltutors.com - it’s the best resource out there, and it has got lots of tutorials on game production pipeline (even including importing your models into Unity).
For retopologizing the mesh I would recommend using TopoGun. DigitalTutors also have got some amazing tutorials on the subject.
