"You don't need to be a cook to know good food"

News & General Discussion
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I think this may start a proverbial snowstorm but this has been on my mind for a long while. Some preface: I am not “anti gamer”, I have been a gamer for a long time but being somewhere between game dev and gamer I do not see what the community is doing as justified or even right. I feel quite alone in that regard, too. At the core I really wish people would stop being so opposed to each other and their ideas, and actually listen to each other.

I posted this to Facebook, and in then process got a bit passionate about what I was saying; so please take this all with a grain of salt

I’ve had a moment of clairvoyance, because I tell gamers they have no place judging the work that goes in to game development and they respond “You don’t need to be a cook to know good food” with no evidence besides their argument and that they say this is true. If I like to eat Mcdonald’s every day and night because I consider it “good food” do I have a reputable opinion on what constitutes good food?

My counter argument? “You can like food and decide what you like but does that make you a food critic? What makes your opinion any more likely to be listened to than anyone elses?” and I can also add “You may like food but does that mean that you can make a decent meal assuming zero prior experience?”

The bottom line is gamers completely lack appreciation for the work that goes in to the industry. I am appalled that NMS received the title “Worst game of the decade” not because it wasn’t fun, like the infamous 1980’s game E.T., but because gamers didn’t get the small list of features they lead themselves to believe were going to be in the game.

The ENTIRE attitude gamers have towards game devs is appalling petty, uncalled for, and unjustifiable.

I’m most appalled that some of the devs on the boards I visit SIDE WITH THE GAMERS. You guys MAKE GAMES. You know what the work is like why are you so eager to jump on the criticism bandwagon?

Lastly I have to say that I have always wanted to make games, and that Unity3d offers me that opportunity. I stand at a kind of cross roads, where one path is that of passionate game dev as a career or the other one which is something else entirely. Some have said and will say “If you can’t handle the criticism then you’re not cut out for this” to which my response is: “Its not my fault this group of people is such an intolerant, petty, group of assholes, I am here because I like to make games and whatever they do is beside the point. It is not my fault if they act this way.”

I wish these gamers would realize that if they continue to act belligerently and aggressively toward the people who make these “Scritty games” they will receive nothing but more of the same. It is literally driving talent away from the industry. I used the term “gamer” liberally in this essay because I wanted to be specific. Also inserted some words in place of expletives.

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Well… Here’s the thing. You want to make games and presumably release them.

When you release them, you release them to an audience. IMO a game dev that hates his audience is a very dysfunctional thing.

Why would you release your games then? Like, “I can’t wait till all those terrible people play my games!” doesn’t make sense to me.

Assholes are just louder than nice people. Don’t let that cloud your judgement.

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Side 1> The unwashed plebs are nothing but a bunch of idiot philistines who will happily consume whatever garbage is peddled hardest at them. They understand nothing about craft, and only care about the best sensual experience that will make them forget their meaningless and fruitless existence.

Side 2> Just because you put in hard work polishing, that doesn’t mean you put out anything but a pile of shit. You aren’t entitled to praise just because you think it’s been deserved. Quality isn’t simply a metric for how much work was spent on it.

So do I sound irritated?

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//opinion
Your argument is void.

You sell food. Your client says it tastes like garbage. You start talking about how much effort you put into making it… guess what happens?
Right, you get an angry client that’ll never come again and will generate negative publicity. Because no matter how much effort you put in it, if they don’t like it, then they don’t like it.

If you’re making games for other people and expect to sell them, it does not matter how much effort you put into making the game, what matters is whether gamers like the result (and buy it) or not. If they don’t like, they won’t start liking it even if you spent fifty years making the thing. Your effort does not matter. Only the end result is important.

So, the advice to “listen to the gamers” is a good one. They’ll provide you feedback and view from outside. When you try to use “but I’m a devleoper” kind of position, you’re basically close your eyes and let pride get into your head, and ignore feedback you could use to improve your product. This kind of behavior will lead to financial failure.

If people don’t like your game, they have a point, their point is valid, and you listen to them. It does not mean you should do what they say, but you need to listen. When you start asking them to provide evidence of their position being valid, you’re doing it wrong.

Technically, it is your fault for letting their opinion under your skin. People are what they are, and they won’t magically change to suit your tastes or fit your standards. Even if they’re being a******s, you will still need to deal with them, and if you can’t handle that, you should either hire someone else for this job, or consider another industry to work with. Such is life.

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I think you’re forgetting something. Gamers are your target, without them you game wouldn’t get played. As a game developer your primary objective is their satisfaction, even if you’re ultimately doing it for your own pleasure/money/fame etc.

Think of it like a relationship: you’re asking people to invest time and money into your game and you simply can’t treat it as if you’re just doing it for yourself. If you took someone on a date and it turned out to be crappy for them or missed their expectations, they would be rightly disappointed (although arguably for $0.99 they could not expect too much, but that’s beside the point!).

In this day and age we have a direct access into other people’s lives, mainly through social media but games are kind of an abstract form of that. When you put something ‘out there’ to some extent people cannot ignore it, it’s great if things go well, but the price to pay for that access is that if people don’t like it they can also send you something back that you (to some extent) cannot ignore. In this day and age everything and the kitchen sink gets ‘shared’ but that doesn’t mean that anybody wants to know about it. In some ways it’s great that we all have much more public lives, but the fact is that you have to be putting on a good show most of the time and people can and will judge you on it.

Also, indie game development is sort of an attempt to individualize what is usually carried out by established commercial enterprises sporting teams of developers. I’ve never sided with people who say “Everyone should appreciate how hard game development is” because probably it’s not really something that is within the scope (financially, efficiency-wise etc) of individual enterprise. It’s sort of like if I tried to make a manufacturing plant in my garage to produce some basic consumer item that could be produced in some automated mega-factory somewhere on the other side of the world for $0.05, and then complained that people didn’t appreciate how difficult it was for me. Why should they care about my troubles? If they were polite they would point out that I should probably just get a job in the mega-factory.

Of course, there’s room for individuals to make great games and there is possibility of great success, but my default position (even when considering my own path) is that I probably shouldn’t be even attempting this and that most indies like me are almost by definition out of their league. I certainly won’t get mad if it doesn’t pan out or people don’t like what I’ve made. I’m only going forward because I think I can see a way to achieve what I want (and this includes gamers’ satisfaction).

So that’s why, as a developer who is interested in releasing games for a public audience, I always side with gamers (or at least the majority of them), because they are the de facto barometer for whether or not what I’m doing is justified or not. If they don’t like my game for any reason, I simply cannot argue with it. If I ever became contrarian to gamers in general I would seriously consider doing something else - it would be like trying to find a partner when I had issues with the opposite sex, it can only end badly especially for me.

So I would advise either adjusting your development to take into account what gamers want or expect, or simply going the hobby route and just jamming with friends. Otherwise it’s going to be a road to self-pity and ultimately failure, as well as simply a waste of time that could be spent doing something that you’re happier with.

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There is a certain arrogance amongst creators in the art world. This includes games as well. The conceit is that only artists can truely understand art. The collaray is that any work that enjoys massive popularity can’t be real art.

Accendotaley this seems to be more prevalent amongst wannabe creators then amongst actual creators.

You see this attitude in a lot of communities. It’s where someone complains that the only reason COD sells is the high marketing budget. Its shown whenever anyone complains that Hollywood keeps pumping out the same blockbuster movies. It’s found in the writing community in complaints about the popularity of Twilight.

Quite frankly the attitude astounds me. Crafting an art piece that millions enjoy is a worthy achievement. And despite the attitude of wannabe creators, it’s not simple or straight forward to do. It’s something we should be celebrating, not dragging down.

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Although I get where you’re coming from:

“it takes a lot more effort to make a game than play it and offer feedback. Therefore a game developer’s opinion is greater than a game player”

But that doesn’t mean the feedback isn’t on point. Sometimes it’s the little feedback you get to make you realise, oh hang on they’re right. It would be better if I did X,Y,Z.

If the majority of people are reacting like this to your game - hey this sucks, then it is likely there is a point. It is the consensus after all.

Instead of going off on a rant and calling them out, take it on board and make your game better. That’s my opinion.

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I mostly agree with you, you can’t really critique something you don’t understand. As an example my critique of most dishes served on those chef game shows would be very low, mainly because I enjoy simple meals and they rarely have those.

The great thing about Game Development is you can do it purely for yourself and if that is the case you can just treat customers like this:

The only problem is when you want to sell them, although you still don’t have to listen to everyone you should have some notion of customer service.

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If we take the food to games analogy, then indie games would be like a street stall or home cooked food and the AAA fast food giants.

Are there any games that fit into the posh restaurant category, small portions, hand made but really expensive?

Also have you looked into gamer demographics, as gamers can range from hard core to casual with massive differences in platforms used, time played, types of games played.

And are you dealing with gamers or trolls, some people online just love to argue or put others down, you even see it here on the Unity game developer forum.

Are there types of game cuisine (regional food trends often historical), possibly japanese style, western style any others?

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But…there is a difference between making games and playing games or even buying games.

NMS was rated poorly by those who buy the game and play the game, mostly because they promised more than they could deliver.

It is amazing to those of us who make games, even if we buy the game, because we see it’s value.

If we make games that are valuable to us, but are not fun to play or are over hyped, then it makes perfect sense to me why the players may not like the games.

Sad to say, but the customers do determine what is “good” or “bad” in a consumer environment.

We decide what is good or bad as far as the art and technology of the game development industry.

I admire Witcher for it’s beautiful graphics and storyline. I will not buy it because I don’t like the game play or some of the mechanics. So, while as a game developer, I find it compelling, as a gamer, I do not find it appealing.

Unfortunately for the game developer, if we post disparaging things on our Facebook page at the very people we want to buy our stuff, then we have just narrowed our market.

BTW, food critiques are just people who have more experience with food. That does not mean that their taste is any better or worse than the populous, just their affect on those that care about food critiques. And yes, I have a right to say that McDonald hamburgers are terrible and that I will never eat them.

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If you make games with the intention of selling those games, then you need to accept the fact that gamers do have the right to judge those games. And they will judge the games based on how much they enjoyed the games, not based on how much effort went into making the games.

Any time you sell something, the buyer has at least some right to be a critic. This concept extends well beyond games and gaming.

The best approach is to thank game buyers for the comments, even when you do not agree with their comments. Thank them for taking the time to share those comments with you. Some gamers comments will be awesome suggestions, while other comments might be completely strange. Either way, start by thanking the gamers for sharing their comments.

Don’t get into an argument with gamers about whether or not they have a right to judge your game. If they bought and played a game, then they definitely have every right to judge the game. And they have the right to judge a game based on what ever criteria they choose.

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Absolutely! Every artist, whether that be an illustrator, musician, writer, or even a game developer, has to deal with criticism. It is difficult and painful at times, but it is part of the process. It makes you better.

I remember publishing scientific papers in the past and having to deal with the criticism. But the scientific method is based on criticism. Without it, there would be no forward process.

With time, most of us learn to deal with it and actually appreciate it.

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No matter if they are “good critics” or not, in my opinion, if someone has something to say about a game they bought and played and didn’t like, it’s your job as a game developer to figure out what they really meant with it, since they indeed have most often no clue about what they mean (they don’t have the eyes of a game dev to see what could have made them feel certain way).
And then it’s also only you who can make the decision if you going to change something about it or not.

Tbh I get that you would be upset about all those very diminishing and not at all adult like behaviour “critique” posts, that some gamers think they can just throw out…although that seems to be a problem everywhere, it does show a certain extremeness to it, that I will probably never understand, but it still doesn’t mean that what they say is all wrong.

If you want to sell your games, you sadly have to deal with whatever current society has raised into your demographic :confused:

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I think it’s good and bad.

Like if someone made a COD style FPS game I would probably not be a good choice for playtesting & feedback.
Same for most of the tiny mobile abstract puzzle type of games. These things are not my cup of tea so to speak.

I rarely even play such games due to lack of interest but sometimes I check one out. Difference is I rarely leave any feedback for such things because I know I am definitely not the target audience. Problem is (from what I’ve seen at least) a lot of people out there will leave feedback on anything & everything even when they simply don’t even like the genre. Their feedback is basically butchering the game simply because it is not the kind of game the person even likes to begin with.

If a developer takes such feedback from someone not in the target audience it seems to me that will do more harm than good. But I could be wrong about that. It is just my belief based on my own experience and what I have seen out there.

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Yes, this happens. But why?

Are they really just nasty people who are willing to buy your game in order to hurt you?

Or was the hype before release confusing? I considered NMS because I read that it would be multiplayer. My kids and I talked about how cool it would be to play it together. We would have been part of their target audience.

However, we didn’t buy it pre-release, thankfully. When we found it it was not multiplayer, we decided it wasn’t our style. We were not part of the their target audience.

Had we paid $60 x 4 so we could all play it, I would have been furious. As it is, I see a cool game, not my style, but with unique technology. I am not furious, because I didn’t buy it.

NMS is not the only game that has sold and been over-hyped. And my guess is that a lot of it happens because the developer truly believes they can do this or that but then either can’t or runs out of funds. Sad, but not the player’s fault.

The other reason people might buy a game not in their target range is because something in that game appealed to them, but then once they played it, it wasn’t what they expected. I love simulation games myself, but I have been terribly disappointed in some games I have purchased. They looked so much better in the trailer.

I really doubt people fork over money to buy a game just to give it a bad review. It could be that the game really isn’t that good to them. Yes, every person will have different reasons why they like or dislike a game.

Reviews are meant to give people a good idea of who likes a game and who doesn’t and why. It gives consumers the ability to make an informed decision. As a consumer, it is our responsibility to wade through the bad and good, see what matches our expectations. We cannot stop people from making bad reviews.

Best thing to do…respond. Thank them for their review and ask them if they have constructive ideas to fix the problem. Ask them what their favorite types of games might be and what they expected when they purchased the game. Use the reviews to collect information, even from the MOST hateful reviews. At the very least, if you reach out and the person is nasty back to you, others will see that you cared and that you tried.

Responses from developers and companies really help me to decide if I want to buy an asset or a game, or this particular kitty litter box. Show your potential customers that you want to know about their experience. Sometimes you can’t fix whatever it is that they don’t like about the game. Fortunately for them, Steam allows refunds. But you could tell them you are sorry/sad that they did not like your game and you hope they find one that fits their needs.

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@Teila I was referring to testing during the WIP stage. Betas for feedback, Steam Greenlight, etc. I figure most people are trying (hopefully) to get feedback during development not after. Sure they should listen to the customers who actually bought the game. But the ones who are trying it out for free and giving feedback… I think those cases need to be picked over to separate the wheat from the chaff. Ideally, it should be a test group made up completely of your target audience. Just my view on it now.

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I see. :slight_smile: Since the post started with NMS, I figured it was about after release! :slight_smile:

Anyway, this is one of the drawbacks of using Steam Early Release. From what I have read in a variety of places and heard from speakers and conferences, Steam Early Release may not be the best way to get testers for your games. Might be better to focus on building a community and pull your testers from there.

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Yeah I understand. I guess I took a different angle on it. I think with NMS it is very clear what happened. The Marketing Machine whips up a sort of feeding frenzy… a mass of gamers bite hard… and many ended up disappointed.

If they hadn’t charged $60 for the game I think that would have made a big difference. Gamers are used to Indies putting out some pretty awesome games for $20 or less. So when you are spending $60 yes your expectations are going to be much higher. At least that is my take on it. I think basically customers feel like they got a $15 to $20 level experience for $60. For $60 they expected to actually get the things they imagined (which may well have been put in their heads from the dev at one point or another).

In this way it is not so different from all of the fuss over The Order. It was a real graphics wonder and marketed as a deep game and maybe it was but it was a very short game with average completion of about 9 hours and some completing it in 4 hours. In that case it was only a couple of months after release and retailers slashed the price heavily with some selling it for $20.

I think there is just a certain expectation from a $60 game. Basically that is AAA price so people expect AAA scope. Well I might be wrong but actually I think people expect that an Indie game at that price will have even more in it than a AAA game does. Not graphically but game length, scope, etc. It is perhaps a reasonable expectation from the perspective of seeing how much entertainment Indies pack into games selling for $5 to $15. Of course, for a so called Indie game to be sold at $60 gamers will expect something pretty phenomenal.

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And they did. It didn’t deliver. Very good reason to write a bad review. :slight_smile:

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It really makes NMS look bad considering you can get (based on the players comments) the same basic experience from this game on GameJolt for free. Old Man’s Sky. A player asked “Is there multiplayer?” and the creator of OMS said “It’s possible to run into other players, but the universe is so enormous that there’s only a very slim chance of ever running into someone else.” Alright that is enough of my rambling here.

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