Essay: A future I would want to live in

Is this a lowkey stab at ME Andromeda? :stuck_out_tongue:

This is a noble sentiment. However…I recall reading a Michael Crichton book once called Disclosure. Now I don’t have the book with me, so I can’t look this up (his books tend to have references–one has 170 references). In it he claimed that women in positions of power abuse their authority (sexual harrassment in this circumstance) to the same extent as men–we just don’t hear about it as much because there are fewer women in leadership.

Again, I can’t say if this is true or not. But there’s no guarantee that putting a different person in charge would change the result.

Ultimately these things tend to be more complicated than we’d like them to be. We like simple answers.

You mean the same Crichton who openly denies the existence of climate change and once wrote a character based on one of his critics to heavily imply he was a pedophile? Yeah, I’m not exactly going to take his word at face value.

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Yeah, i would not quote Crichton on an expert on anything but maybe writing books. I am sure a better source could be found to bolster the claim.

I have no doubt that women in power also are involved in sexual harassment cases against men. In fact, I read an article recently that indicated this was true…about 5% of the cases that came before some law firms that specialized in sexual harassment cases were men filing against women. Lots of reasons why this number is not bigger. Also, there were a percentage that also were men filing against men.

Regardless, just because women do it too at some numbers, that does not make it okay. You can’t cancel one by saying “everyone does it”.

I brought this up because it is a symptom of the gender issues going on today. One of the many problems honestly. When we have more women directing movies, producing movies, etc., then we can see if there is a change in the problems. Until then, it is all speculation. Besides, many of the women actresses that came forward also said there were women who enabled the men to do what they did. The problem is in the culture of the industry, and while it is disturbing and something part of me wants to block out of my head, I know it is something that cannot be ignored.

So to bring it back to the OP’s first post…we have a situation that is evolving around us that has a very good chance of changing the world we live in. I am sad that Game of Cards has lost it’s star and that actors I have admired now make me sad. But…I am glad that this is out in the open. I am glad that our world is evolving to allow people to come forward, not be afraid, not have their career ruined.

Diversity could be the key to helping us understand each other. And by diversity, I mean all, men, women, cis, trans, bi, gay, lesbian, black, white, brown, etc.

I grew up in a very white midwestern area, near the Wisconsin border. There was one black family in our elementary school. When I was bused to the city for high school, we had 30% African Americans. Our school was a magnet school for performing arts students so we had many gay and lebian and bi students. We all studied together, we acted together, we laughed and cried, cheered for the basketball team, etc. This was well before anyone talked about diversity…I am old. lol

While the richer more white schools had race riots, we had students putting on plays about inclusiveness.

It was a good thing. I never felt less because there was so much more. :slight_smile: I had friends whose experiences were very different from mine and I struggled to understand. But…it was all good in the end. I see my kids and their friends doing it even better.

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No, I haven’t played it. Never could get into the series.

I was e.g. thinking of a movie where at the time of watching I thought it was the worst piece of macho-action-trash I’ve ever seen, and then later found out it was directed by a woman. I don’t wanna trashtalk her though, because from what I could find on her she seemed pretty cool and she probably had the odds stacked against her in all possible ways, which was exactly my point about the systemic problems of the funding-source having more influence than gender, race, and sexuality of the creatives.

In games I didn’t think of specific examples, but when I finish a game I do occasionally read the credits looking for names that sound familiar, and I just remember being surprised every now and then that AAA teams are already more diverse than I would have thought.
One example I could find quickly is this: http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/bulletstorm
Bullestorm lists Tanya Watson as Lead Producer. I have no idea how important that role is, but she’s listed second on the list, so I guess “pretty important”. The game was amazing, one of the best old-school FPS probably. But it’s also so full of profanity, immature jokes and glorified violence, that I wouldn’t blame anyone for thinking “no way any women were involved in the production of this dudebro shooter”.

Maybe I should clarify that I’m neither opposed in any way to more diverse dev teams, nor to more diverse games on the market, I only believe one doesn’t just automatically causally achieve the other*), because making games is expensive, and this creative space is influenced more by money than anything else in my opinion.

*) I think the thought that certain groups of people can only make certain groups of games is… false.

I do not think anyone made definitive statement like that. :slight_smile: And of course women can make trashy movies and games. lol We are not any different from men in that regard. We are diverse among ourselves just as you are.

But…I do believe that some people can make the games I like better than other people. And it could be that a group of women would make a game I would enjoy better than a group of men. On the other hand, I adore Raph Koster and loved his games. :slight_smile: So who knows? It would be nice to get a chance to find out though.

One thing is true. Until more different types of people start working on different types of games, we really do not know. In my honest opinion, the best team to make games is a mix of people from all walks of life. Imagine how great a game could be if it could portray the human condition the way it is. A world full of many different people.

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I’ve looked at half a dozen links and have yet to find one where Crichton denies “climate change.” Perhaps you can point me in the right direction (amusingly, I found a lot of comments like yours which apparently glossed over a book of his without reading it and immediately attacked him for not towing the party line).

What I have found (or rather, what I’ve known for a while) however is many claims by his of science today (not saying it ever wasn’t, just that his discussion is current) being politicized and not objective. And more importantly, of man’s ignorance and impulsiveness in the face of phenomena he doesn’t fully understand. And I personally know he’s right there.

So I think I’ll take his word–not at face value, but at the value of those 100+ references he has.

I think my favorite “female protagonist” games are Remember Me and Life is Strange, both of them being good games regardless of the characters and in both cases the female characters also being done rather well. Both stories (and presumably both characters–I’m unsure about Max) were written by men.

Most definitely was not trying to say it’s okay. I was trying to point out that putting someone else in charge is not necessarily the answer. Kind of what I said at the very end of my post–these things are more complicated than they appear sometimes.

I found links as soon as I searched for Chricton and Climate Change. He wrote an entire novel with the premise. I cannot remember the name of it and I am sure you can find it if you look at Amazon or something. I remember the novel because at the time I was stupid and bought into his ideas…talked to a friend who was very disappointed in me. As a scientist, I should have known better. lol Prior to his novel, I did not know there were actually people who did not “believe” in science. But…this is not really a good decision for here. Just pointing out that he is not all that credible…well, in my eyes at least.

Definitely more complicated than they appear. But…it is a fact that women are outnumbered by men in many industries and in some, the hostile work environment causes women to leave. Again, I am sure you can google this so won’t go on and on and I tend to do. :slight_smile:

Myself include, I think sometimes we live in the world we choose and do not always see what is outside that bubble. We all could use getting of that comfort zone sometimes.

Yeah, I need to try those when I have time.

But it is not the female protagonist that makes the game one “that gets me” or “one I would like”. It is the style of the game and the story and the message all rolled into one. :slight_smile:

Again though, who knows. Someday, this entire discussion will seem so antiquated and quaint. lol

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Just want to point out that diversity isn’t so much about solving problem of “oppression” per se (ie making the problem about the “oppressor”) but really about “fairness”, ie we want to succeed but also fail on equal ground where the superficial distinction don’t box us anymore, ie the ideal is that an asshole should be an asshole, man or woman, but the actual situation is that woman (and any minority) are in a context where they are prevented to even be in a situation where they can be judged on that merit, and that put pressure and suspicion on everything they do (are they here because they are woman or because of their merits), imposter syndrome is higher in discriminated group and contribute to bog them down.

I mean a lot of counter arguments is along idea of “will it change anything? woman can be asshole too!”, and they aren’t really counter argument, they actually support the point, if man and woman have no distinction why preventing women in the first place? It’s like the hiring argument where people say “what if the perfect man for the job show up and we are trying to hire for diversity?”, well duh, what about the perfect “insert discriminated group here”? Would Hideo Kojima or Amy henning find a job at your company? But equality is also equality of mediocrity, because not all me in position of power are there on merit alone, so why the standard isn’t the same for everyone? Obviously we should aspire for higher standard for everyone too.

And this situation has roots in historical economical asymmetry, minority didn’t have any economic power until recently, and they haven’t gotten to critical place in critical number to exert significant change, which mean the lead men have is historical and has been maintain through sheer inertia. That’s why there is almost any AAA team lead by an ecosystem of women (it’s always a few woman selected and framed by an army of men in powerful decision role. I mean just to take the USA, it’s only from the 70s than women had access to property right and segregation wasn’t long before that, that’s not a lot of year to catch up. The pain we are experiencing now is the catching up taking place.

This make the discussion difficult, because the ideal and the situation don’t mix well. And this create difference of culture and ritual, women and minority have created a culture in reaction to the pressure place on them, it’s a culture that value some things only because of the current situation, not because of the merit of each people. That’s why so many minority value personal, intimate production, to counter the epic and grandiose story that reduce or erase them.

For example, as a culture, the western world love story about revolution against the oppressor, it make historical sense, it was the american revolution or the french revolution, just to name a few, when they were oppressed by the powerful, they pick up some arms and kicked some ass really hard, and we celebrated that, this is fundamental to the culture and imagination. Now imagine now that there is this group that is telling you to stop oppressing them, it flip the script entirely, what does that mean when you have this perspective of kicking oppressor? what conclusion do you arrive at? It does goes against your identity, it makes you fear of retaliation, because that’s what we do to oppressor right, therefore you CAN’T be the oppressor because that conclusion is simply not acceptable. The thing is that the imagination of being raised under a dominated culture don’t lead to the same imagination nor the same conclusion. Perspective matter a lot, imagination is impacted, and so is the production.

For example: The first dreamworks movie directed by a black person was Home, and the story is about alien coming to our planet and displace us, tearing family appart, but not out of malicious intent, but dumb carelessness, they fear retaliation from a stronger alien race they stole something they think has a lot of value. The main characters, a black girl, bond with one misfit alien and she is looking for her lost mother, she is not looking to kick the alien butt at any moment, her motto is that she is “mad sad”, basically that the action of the alien cause her “distress” and in the end it’s all about showing the alien leader the error of his way, and ultimately when the other alien race appear it turns out they were not trying to retaliate but just to pick back what was stolen because it was literally something that hold their children, so the fear of the careless alien were unfounded. And that’s something that make sense when you look at the history of black people, in the face of oppression we tried to collaborate and make our concern understood, we sought out not to retaliate but to live peacefully devoid of the burden, from Martin Luther king to Nelson Mandela, march rather than arms where the primary tools of revolt, to asset we exist as human.

Perspective matter, it lead to different conclusion, bthat’s why we need to understand each other, to know where we all come from.

I think it’s generally not hard for men to like women written by other men :wink: lol

I say that because it’s something I had to struggle with my game, I had to realize there is some nuances and perspective I didn’t have access at all. And while it’s perfectly possible for someone who isn’t part of a group to write for that group, there is still minute details that only a person of that group can pick up, and indeed while women like life is strange, there was a few quibble that they thought were a bit odd.

Similarly Remember me is a bit disappointing in how it portray their black people (tragic mulatto and bossy distant black mother) even though it’s not 100% offensive and 0% malicious, they are just product of a certain perspective. Now if you told me you were able to like 50 shade of grey, twilight or the mobile game Kim kardashian, I would be seriously impressed lol.

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I agree and I see what happened in South Africa as a very good example of this. Another might be the south after the Civil War. It actually makes me sad to think that men who might argue against diversity are actually afraid that when women are in power, that they will retaliate against the men. Will some do that? Maybe…but in the world I envision, retaliation only endangers the diversity that people fight so hard go obtain.

Of course, there are always militant groups. There are always those who are angry. And there are always those who love to fight. Much of that is the feeling that they are ignored or the feeling that they will be marginalized if things change or that they cannot accept change. Humans find change scary. Fear is a huge motivator and not always in a good way.

Absolutely. On the other hand, it is not a bad thing as men using women as the main protagonist is at least step in the right direction. If I turn to that to TV or film or even books, it is not difficult for me to tell when the women is the director or the writer. There are subtle changes. Directors like Shondra Rhimes are a good example and wow, she is powerful! :slight_smile: While I am sometimes frustrated with her dialogue, it is so realistic…which is probably why I sometimes want to shake Meredith and tell her to grow up! lol

I studied in college in a field with mostly men. I worked in jobs that were mostly men. I like men, as people. I enjoy their company. I like their directness (for the most part). I understand them in some ways better than women, at least at times. Many years of working with 90% men has trained me to think like them sometimes.

But…when I left my job to become a full time mom, I lost that world. My friends became women. I had to open that part of who I am. It was not easy. lol I had to reach back to my pre-scientist days and remember what is was like to have girlfriends. Women relate to each other differently, we talk to each other differently, and our worlds are different in some cases.

Honestly, I still feel more comfortable here with all the guys than I do sometimes in a room full of women. :slight_smile:

P.S: But in an MMO, I always play a female.

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My answer to tend and befriend starts with a question.

Would we go watch films that just skipped all the struggle, jumped to the end, and stayed there for 2 hours?

I think the author just missed the point of what role entertainment plays. It’s to let us experience that cycle of struggle, defeat, success that has played out since the beginning of time and is a part of who we are. It comes in a lot of different forms but it’s the same pattern.

Movies and games are not that different at the core. The medium is different which poses challenges for anything not just frivolous fun, but I don’t think games are inherently limited to that. If you want to make a game that promotes non violence I think it’s possible. But doing that by just creating a game without violence is I think to misunderstand what makes entertainment interesting. (which is different then just making a non violent game, if that makes sense).

I think your reply touches on this obliquely, but I just wanted to make it explicit: you can have conflict without violence. Conflict – the difference between what a character wants and what it believes it has – makes stories engaging. Conflict, not violence, drives all stories.

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No, it does not make sense.

Violence does not entertain me. I get it when it is part of the story, but violence for the sake of entertainment does not appeal to everyone. It is a big reason why not everyone plays certain types of games.

Tend and Befriend is a way some people deal with danger and stress. It is why during the shooting in Las Vegas, some people ran away (Flight or Fight response) and some people helped others get over walls and hide in the freezer (Tend and Befriend).

I like to play MMO’s. But I do not like to engage in PvP. I actually hate it. It stresses me out and makes me very uncomfortable. I do like to play the games. I like to take part in more of a support role, crafting, healing, etc. I have absolutely no fun playing a game where my life in is constantly in danger. It is not entertaining, it is not fun.

Reading the article featured in this thread led me to learn about Tend and Befriend and it makes me realize why I do not like to place myself in the center of violence in games. I much prefer to help people and make friends. I would much rather by in the group that listens to the stories of the players who PvP and kill stuff. I really enjoyed being a dancer in Star Wars Galaxies, where I could take part in the stories and have as much fun as those of you who get your entertainment from fighting and violence.

I would never tell someone that you need to take out violence to have a fun game. I actually find a little odd that others think it is okay to tell me that you can never be entertained by a game without violence. Even worse is to tell me that I do not understand what is entertaining is if I do not enjoy violence in a game. And as Tony said, conflict does not have to be violent.

BTW, social scientists are finding that many women are Tend and Befriend. But they are also finding out that a significant number of men are as well. So…there is another market to capture for those who want to try different types of styles of conflict in their games.

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It’s call slice of life, that’s basically tend and befriend, and it’s also a popular way to tell story, anime fan have plenty love for series just like this. In japan they perfected it with the theory of ki sho ten ketsu which is also used in japanese video games. It replace conflict with twist. Under a conflict base framework of storytelling it’s entirely possible to characterize twist as a form of conflict (for example the unexpected conflict with the expected) but it’s also fair to call it an over generalization of the notion of conflict.

And in the end, even an overgeneralized notion of conflict impact how some approach story culturally, as it railroad into assumption and create forced addition of conflict. It is seen in some manga adaptation in the west, where weird stuff happen in scene, because translator feel it need “more conflict” but the audience still understand it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t add to the enjoyment. Japanese story tend to be a lot more contemplative, and it seems to be a general taste in asia, Wong kar wai’s movie could be a good example of that, they tend to be more reflective than about overcoming a struggle, and they are popular enough.

In the end a story works when it is relatable, conflict is a cheap consistent way to make relatable works, but it’s not the only one, and story with conflict and struggle don’t make a work automatically relatable. For example the last jedi is blasted for having contrived conflict, it’s arguable that the previous one had similar problem, but there was a great chemistry between characters (tend and befriend) and that was the draws, now they botch that part so the problem is laid bare.

Then there is taste, some people just like conflict and will dismiss everything else, that don’t push their button, as vapid. I mean some people find transformer vapid, yet it do find a large audience, the same way some people find slice of life empty, yet they have a large following. And even among movie with the same plot and tropes, some clearly goes above the over in reception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01UIBjog3G4

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I think really this is a huge part of the problem. People make games that they like. It happens with most of us.

This is one reason why diversity is good, and I do not just mean diversity of culture, but diversity of ideas and likes/dislikes.

There is an entire world of gamers out there, some of them already playing games they like, some of them waiting for a game they will like, and some of them giving up because the game they like will never be made.

If we have people with different “tastes”, then we get games/films/TV shows that all appeal to a different taste.

My kids love anime. I do not. I also do not turn off the TV and tell them they are vapid or violent or whatever when they want to watch anime…they are not wee kids, they know what they like.

My husband likes shows like Breaking Bad. I hated the first episode. But…I did not whine and tell him to only watch shows I like.

I love period dramas. I have one daughter who also likes period dramas. We watch them together. :slight_smile: I do not make the others feel guilty for not watching them with me.

So…while to @snacktime , the entire movie should be action packed and exciting. That is what he likes to play. My son might agree with you. And that is okay.

But realize that not everyone enjoys what you enjoy. You would find Poldark or Victoria vapid. lol I find it fun.

When we start respecting everyone’s tastes and stop thinking everyone likes what we like, the game industry will have a much wider variety of games…that are popular. Right now, while there are many different sorts of games, only the MOST popular make it to the top of the Steam list and most of those are rather similar in style. I looked for some mystery multiplayer games on Steam…found 3 or 4, some of them no longer even being supported. Maybe this means there are not enough people who want to play them…or maybe it means that they do not pop up on the front page. Games for role players do not even show up. You have to find another kind of multiplayer game and search for role players. I know for a fact that many role players would love a game that actually was for role players.

But…for many reasons, we convince ourselves that the games that sell well are the ones everyone wants to play. And by doing that, we never get a chance to even try new ideas.

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The point was if you make a game where the point of it is to promote non voilence, by necessity voilence has to exist in some form to show the struggle to avoid it.

As opposed to a non violent game.

I suspect a problem in this type of gaming will be in presenting meaningful, impactful choices to the player. In a positive scenario, no choices are wrong!

Tend and Befriend is not necessarily a positive scenario. What she is saying is that not all people respond to violence and danger by fighting back or running away. So games could instead have characters and players responding by gathering others (befriend) to aid them and by tending to those who need protection.

She did not say that games should be about sunshine and daisies. She is impying that we could portray the rest of the population that does not enjoy fighting by giving them the option or even making it the focus of how the players/characters solve the problems by using different methods.

I can imagine many scenarios where this could be exciting and fun to play. :slight_smile: Too bad so many are mired in the falsehood that solutions to in game conflict almost always has to be violent.

I don’t think the solutions always have to be violent, but providing challenges to the player is required. Challenges don’t require conflict or violence, but when keeping the game set in a real world (as opposed to something like Tetris) it is pretty close to a requirement - IN MY OPINION.

Even in a classic game like Sim City, which most people would think of as a non-violent game, is certainly not violence free. Too much crime in a part of town? Drop down a police station nearby so it can use state sanctioned violence to get the neighborhood under control… Not to mention the entertainment of a fire breaking out, people’s apartments burning down, as you try to fight it to save the city. How many virtual lives were destroyed to get that smile on your face? Plenty of violence in Sim City.

What I’d really like to see is some games that really try to put this utopian anti-violence theory into practice, and see if it really has legs. Does it become a niche genre, or does it spawn entire categories of game types? Or does it go nowhere? The believers in this idea just need to really give it a try, and it will sink or swim on its own merits. The more types of games the better, as well as more innovation.

For it to work, I think it needs to leave many common game genres behind and go with something completely new. Not just a reskinning of an existing game genre in a non-violent package.

I’m more than happy to admit I was wrong when this idea takes off.

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