For thoes who think not doing everything from the ground up and using Unity is cheating.

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I used to think like that when I was younger. Anything but DIY seemed… ā€œunfairā€. :slight_smile:

There used to be some people who said C programmers were cheaters and only assembly was real programming. I even heard a guy say assembly programmers are wimps compared to the real old school programmers that entered everything using a box full of punch cards. Basically anytime a new layer tries to simplify part of the process, at least some people will complain that it is cheating/bloated/whatever. The people who ignore those complainers and embrace the new layer of tech nearly always yield an advantage when developing complex software. If we all still did everything in assembly, games would still be pretty basic.

And what is the real definition of ā€œdoing everything from the ground upā€? People used to complain about ā€œcheatersā€ using DirectX or OpenGL instead of building all of the hardware drivers from the ground up for each game. Some people complaining about using game engines today are not actually talking about building ā€œeverythingā€ from the ground up, because they are building their games on top of DirectX or OpenGL.

If you are working on your game instead of re-inventing the wheel, then some people will call you a cheater. The bottom line is that people need to find tools to make game development easier, and game engines like Unity are awesome.

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if you want something good done, do it your self.

That is hilarious! :smile:
I used to think mocap was cheating - until I saw what really goes into getting mocap setup and working, especially the do-it-yourself mocap.

Bah, all you game developers are cheaters. I do it the real way: I go over to my friends house with some dice and run the game for the whole group at the tabletop. No graphics, no networking, no none of this stuff you youngins have all gotten so dependent on!

:slight_smile:

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Your cheating if your using official rules created by someone else! Make your own - you dang cheater! LOL :slight_smile:
And create your own dice too - start with a rock or stick! Carving is fun, but knots and different densities in the wood create loaded dice, so you’ll need a pristine piece to begin with. And don’t think about using a dremel - only friction carving is acceptable. :smile:

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You are cheating it! You should have retyped those words instead of just taking a screenshot. :sunglasses:

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Been there, done that.

Also made paper bits with numbers on them for dice when we didn’t have any handy.

Of course, I’m old enough that my first set of D&D dice were the ones where you had to take a crayon and color the numbers in. That was all there were.

I also own a copy of the original Basic set where you had to cut out little cardboard numbers to put into a cup and draw because TSR couldn’t get the dice making machine to work. They’re still intact as I never used them in play.

And now that I’ve completely derailed this thread…

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Huh. That might be an interesting way to guarantee that dice are not loaded.

We just need someone to come along and tell us how they had to cut out their own VR headsets from paper. :stuck_out_tongue:

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The reason why the human race has made it this far, is because we build of the shoulders of those that came before us. So we are all cheats just for existing.

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Speak for yourself. I was spawned from the ether when the world yearned for greatness.

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Translation: How many of these puritans actually finish anything?

Just in case this was a little too outside the box, it was cheating to use automatic conversion to ASCII and use a human language that was built before I was created. So I wanted to avoid that and talk in pure binary, we shouldn’t really use the internet as someone else made that, I’d suggest we all draw pictures in caves and hope someone comes across it…

It’s not quite as efficient as forum software, but y’know we gotta keep it real :smile:…! @TokyoDan I hardly believe many think using Unity is cheating. If for whatever reasons someone does believe it is cheating, then by analysis of flawed logic I doubt you’d change their minds… It would be easier to convince a tree stump to become a full time technical artist.

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Actually, there was a six minute GDC soapbox by Cliff Harris against Unity because it prevented developers from actually learning how things work. Note that the language is not safe for work.

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Only if you’re the one who discovered that one substance can leave a mark on another substance.

You know I’m surprised no one has linked the XKCD comic about real programmers yet…

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Cliff Harris is an excellent example of why Cliff Harris is wrong. First of all, he himself is limited to building relatively simple 2D games instead of more complex 3D games because of his stance against using game engines like Unity. Some of his games have done really well, but he definitely has imposed a limit on himself with his anti game engine stance.

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Yeah. That was a good talk. And it did make sense. I am an old guy who back in 1982 or '83 started with Applesoft Basic and when that was too slow I used 6502 assembly language to speed it up. I made a few games, and I know pretty much how games are made at a very low level…sprites were made in binary blocks, row by row, and each frame needed 7 different sprites to cover where it may be placed in the bytes that made up screen space. That said, things were more bothersome then they were hard (anyone with an IQ over 0 can learn assembly if they want to), but nowhere as difficult as it is now to make a technically advanced game. There is just sooooo much to know, even with engines like Unity. I’m glad I started when I did because I could learn new tech as it came along. I’f I started now…there’d be just too much to learn and I’d never even start. (also I’d rather dig ditches than learn the math and techniques to code a 3D engine (boring to me) and I’d never even try to make a game).

So hats off to the young devs who weren’t around in the beginning but still make technically accomplished games with Unity, Unreal, Gamemaker, etc…

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Better to build relatively simple games that are successful than to build 3D games that never make it off the ground. While his stance may not be the greatest I don’t believe that is what is actually ā€œholding him backā€ because I have known of developers who single handedly built their own 3D game engines (eg Irrlicht).

I simply believe he doesn’t have any interest in 3D like many other developers (eg Jeff Vogel). He’s satisfied with his niche.

It is very hard to build a good 3D game engine and build a good 3D game at the same time all by yourself. Some people have done it, but it seldom a good idea to go that route. The most common outcome for people who try to build their own 3D game engine and 3D game is an unfinished project or a project finished well after it would be relevant. Simply using readily available game engines nearly always makes more sense.

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