What Courses do I want to take for....?

News & General Discussion
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So I’m thinking about trying to get a degree in something, I called a college the other day, they sent me curriculum and I realized I know everything they have to offer plus more, and am fairly fluent with most of it.
He explained to me that even though I can do everything that they are teaching, I still need an diploma to get a job in the industry. But really I just want to create my own games at first, then develop a company (Which is already on its way). I still would like to eventually take a course like theirs, just to tune in my animating/rigging (and stuff like that plus game/color theory) to make it a quicker more efficient process, but I’ll explain later why I don’t want to right now.

I don’t know much about colleges or University’s, too be honest I actually don’t even have my high-school, but I might be able to get it from my old teacher from out of school credits. I was top of my class when I was going, but I had to drop out when I was younger, and go work due to circumstances in my life, I’ve came back to game design after modding a lot from when I was a kid, and I’ve been working really hard, all day, everyday for a long time now, trying to make my dreams come true.
But I have realized I can only learn so much on my own, and what I really want to learn is how to program developer tools, graphics, in-game physics, networking and engines too if I can. I know I could easily get by with out this, but I’ve always dreamed about being able to make the backbones and programs that every developer uses.

So what courses do I need to take? Once I am able to of course? (Designing shaders, making tools like for example Shader forge / Map Magic [or anything else complex on the asset store, like being able to implement NVidia flex on my own], making in-game physics for lets say a mountain bike or skate board, and engine design ) I was watching this video on the frost bite engine, and their tools look amazing! Check out this video and look at 2:30. The way they put their buildings together looks amazing, and just being able to make tools like that would be amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGOkKdb-SM&t=1s

Anyways, here is the course list,

but I don’t really know what courses teach what and how the courses work. It has a lot of stuff for computers, but doesn’t look like its really specific for gaming, if anyone knows what courses I should take, or what school I should go to in the Vancouver BC, Canada area, please share, thanks!

And lets say I chose Software Engineering and Programming Languages, would I take all those courses? Or just 507: Software Engineering?

Has anyone ever heard of people getting into University without high school? Even though they had an extensive skill set? Lets say I made a fully featured, full length game, that looks close to AAA, would or could they make an exception? I will eventually go get my equivalency, but its just something I’m wondering.

Also I plan on waiting till I make a full length game before I go get my high school and pursue University, I’m hoping I can give hope to kids who don’t have the chance to go to College or University, and show that you can achieve your dreams no matter how you grew up, even without a high school education.
Not saying I want kids to drop out and say fuck school, I want kids who haven’t graduated to just not think its too late for them, and if they work hard they can achieve their dreams. So that is why the college course isn’t for me right now, once I prove it can be done, I plan on going back and learning it all. I know everyone has their own specialty in the industry, but I love being able to do everything I need on my own, and I just want to do more :wink: ! Thank you for reading, and thank you for replying!

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That’s an easy one. Many unis have bridging programs that allow you to catch up. Others will credit work experience. And if needed you can always do a lesser qualification first.

He’s a salesperson. Which means he lies. Try talking to some local people actually hiring in the industry, they will give you a better picture then any school will.

In my very limited experience, games companies are more interested in games you’ve made then degrees you’ve earned.

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I think having a degree does help. While relevant work experience or games under your belt are in some ways better, the degree can open up doors, or at least get a recruiter to take you a little more seriously. Obviously you can make a hit game by yourself and make it without any formal education, and that is one way to get experience and recognition. And that could work if you want to start your own company or freelance. You don’t really need a degree for that. But many larger companies do look for a degree, even if it is just one check box among many things.

I know in my own career, I’m actually a pretty advanced programmer but got passed up on positions mostly I think because employers won’t believe you if you say you know your stuff and they want to see some proof. A college education is one way to prove yourself. Even now, I consider going back to school for Computer Science, as it’s something I always wanted and it does sort of hold you back for traditional game industry jobs.

One thing I noticed, you linked to a Graduate program. I don’t know of many schools that would admit you without an Undergrad degree, and not having a High School diploma or GED can block you from getting into Undergrad. So you may have some work ahead of you want to get into school.

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This is untrue. Either he was mistaken or more likely trying to convince you of joining college for some monitary gain.
College isnt a requirement but as others stated - a good thing to have so hiring teams will know for sure you have a structured understanding of the basics of what is taught.
Additionally do not forget about the student interactions and comrade - which imo are invaluable and something that continues as a value long after leaving school.

Even though a college degree is not a requirement to get into the game industry, a high school diploma or ged, pre-requisite classes, and a SAT above a specific score IS manditory to get into most accredited colleges in the US. Not sure but Canada probably has similar pre-reqs.
So even if you wanted to attend college - at this point until you attain these 3 requirements, you are not qualified to attend college classes.

Im not sure your route to build a full length game before attaining pre-reqs is a good plan, simply becasue “full length” games tend to take 3-5 years, maybe more as an indie to complete. Putting off learning pre-req subjects could increase the difficulty to learn the subjects as these classes usually have a basic knowledge requirement which is best retained at a young age when the information is still fresh in memory.

However if you still decide to complete a fill length game before proceeding with continuing education - you may want to consider learning a 2nd or 3rd language while working on your game.
Being bilingual in some companies is a VERY valuable comodity. And in this industry I suspect the most valuable second languages to have in addition to English are Japanese, French and Spanish.

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Awesome I was kind of hoping someone would say that, I’ve been working for a year straight on a couple games so far, still a lot of work but it feels good to be getting closer. :slight_smile:

The education I would like to have is more just for personal wants, maybe a couple needs. I just feel a little held back some times, of course I can always just go buy a script on the asset store, but I feel like I’m cheating when I do that.

Thanks for the reply.

I’ve never really understood what Computer Science is, does it cover programming? Or the technical side of things, like about electrons making computations?

I really would just like to go learn some more advanced programming, even if I don’t end up going for a job at a company, it would be really helpful for my own projects.

QUOTE=“cyberpunk, post: 2955588, member: 229745”]

One thing I noticed, you linked to a Graduate program. I don’t know of many schools that would admit you without an Undergrad degree, and not having a High School diploma or GED can block you from getting into Undergrad. So you may have some work ahead of you want to get into school.[/QUOTE]

Ok so is a graduate program a course I need to have already got a degree to take? Or is it possible to get in with just a high school education?
I found the full list of courses available, but I wouldn’t even know where to begin to look for what course I want to take?

https://courses.students.ubc.ca/cs/main?pname=subjarea

What would a senior programmer, at lets say Bungie, what courses would he/she have taken and what degree would they have gone for to become a senior programmer?

Also what would cover how to program ray tracers, and collision detection. Physics programmer?
and what about stuff like writing a PBR real time renderer? Graphics programmer? or is that just stuff like shaders and pre/post effects?

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah actually I read the reviews on the college and a lot of people were saying they only care about money. Definitely don’t want to go there, even if it did get good reviews. Eventually I would like to go to University, after my high school of course.

Thanks I won’t forget about that haha. I’ve definitely spent a little too much time hanging out with the wrong crowd being a little goof lol. It will be nice to meet people with actual goals and aspirations.

I will definitely look into that, didn’t even think about that.

I’m afraid this is really my only option I have, unless I want to become a carpenter or something like that (Which I was thinking of years ago). Even if I go get my high school tomorrow, I don’t have anywhere close to the amount of money needed even for college, I’m hoping my game will pay for my education.
Actually the only reason the school called me is because I had to put my contact info on their site just to get info on the courses, next minute they ended up calling me and forcing me into an phone appointment. And too be honest I just wanted to see how far I could get with out high school at the time, but then when he sent the info, I realized I knew all the programs they were teaching, and am actually fairly good with them. There is a couple things I question how to do still, like that thread you were helping me on, but its mostly just about optimizing stuff properly. Game theory is also something I haven’t really looked into yet, but its on my list.

I have stable housing with my gf right now, and am fully dedicated to spend 3 to 5 years on a game, I do plan on releasing a smaller game and also some assets on the store in the next year. And I plan on doing it at the same time I’m making my full one though, they both are going to use a lot of the same assets so I’m killing 2 birds with one stone. I screwed up so badly in my life, but I’m really so so grateful to have the skills I do have, one way another, I won’t starve :slight_smile:

I’m actually turning the last 10 years of my life into a game, maybe you can play it some day haha.

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Don’t read too much into my comments about getting into the industry. I’m a chemical engineer that tinkers with games on the weekends. Not a full time developer.

Being self taught doesn’t mean you can avoid learning things. You still have to know the things that a degree would teach you. If you need to program, you will need to learn this on your own.

Go find out. Its right their on their website. https://www.bungie.net/en/About/Careers

Avoiding University doesn’t mean you can be ignorant. If you want to avoid formal schooling, you’ll have to learn how to find out this information on your own. Go do some googling.

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I’m not trying to avoid learning anything, I made this post specifically to ask for what courses I would need to take…

I have been doing a little bit of looking for what courses I need to take, but when I look at the list it seems there is so many things that are very similar, I’m just trying to find out what courses from someone who is in the business, and what they would recommend taking for the things I want to learn.

I just looked at bungies site, it doesn’t have the info I’m looking for. Sorry and it was also just an example of a position, I’m trying to ask what courses I need to take to learn these types of things. For their Lead Engine Engineer these our the requirements. It’s not telling me to go take these courses at University for 5 years, it says you need the experience in all the skill sets I was asking about.

Build and maintain production-quality C++ code Collaborate daily with a cross-disciplinary team to build amazing new technology, including forays beyond the core C++ engine (e.g. C# tools & pipelines) Directly manage several engineers, providing support, mentorship, constructive feedback, and career development advice Invent, extend, and maintain features, workflows, and tools Help drive our technology vision forward Required Skills 5+ years of professional experience as an engineer in game development 5+ years of professional experience in C++ Experience leading (managing, mentoring, or guiding) engineers through planning, developing, and shipping Excellent communication skills Nice-to-Have Skills Experience with gameplay systems and pipelines (e.g. behavior, scripting) Experience developing tools and workflows Experience working in C# Experience working with modern console architectures and multi-platform systems Experience with audio programming

I really don’t know how you thought that I wanted to avoid stuff, except for going back to high-school, which if need be, I would get an equivalency if I need too.

Also, I was trying to explain what I know, to see if it helps my odds in getting into school.
I’ve spent enough of my life fucking around, it really wasn’t possible to change at the time though. What I’m doing is I’m trying to fix my life, not cheat and avoid my way through things. If you aren’t a game developer I don’t even know why you responded.
Even though you responded in text, I can tell you think I’m just a kid trying to joke his way through life, you don’t know what I’ve been through, and I don’t know what you’ve been through, so don’t judge me, and I wont judge you.

Edit: I am Sorry I flipped, but It annoyed me to have you think I’m just a kid trying to fuck around, I literally spend 10 hours and day, 7 days a week trying to make this all a possibility for myself. I work so damn hard, like I’m sure everyone here does, but because I don’t have an education it seems no one can look past that. It was nice to believe that people actually could see more, but you just proved that maybe they can’t.

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To answer your question directly (note: I’m an artist with no formal engineer/programming education at all) most universities have tracks which direct the student towards gaining a specific degree in a general field. BA= bachelor of arts, BS= bachelor of science, I don’t know about engineering/programming, BE? (google knows).
Most of the courses/classes are structured so the learning is an arc that builds upon each subject towards more difficult subjects and complex topics.
So the more focused question you should be asking, in my opinion, is what courses will allow you to earn a engineering degree?
Most of the engineering/programming courses will teach content related to the subjects you were mentioning in your first couple posts, but as far as I know there is no course/class strictly teaching about physics programming and PBR shader coding, unless you attend a specific games programming course. And from my understanding - those degrees are generally not looked upon positively.

Hope this helps - from the little I know about college stuff. :wink:

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Engineering and Computer Science are basically Bachelor of Science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tagged_degrees

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Glad to know that one random on the internet can prove the entire spectrum of human existence for you.

Some people work hard. It’s not a strict requirement to get anything done. Doing the right work will beat hard work every day of the week.

It’s actually enlightening. It says you can’t get a lead role without five plus years experience in a similar junior role. So go find a job as for a junior role.

Trace that back, and you’ll be able to figure out the study requirements.

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It’s also possible to do a bachelor of engineering with a major in software engineering.

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Just now skimmed through the sub-articles on Wikipedia for Bachelor of Engineering and Bachelor of Science. There are entirely too many variants of the term. StackExchange had some information but I feel like I still don’t understand why. :stuck_out_tongue:

http://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/58053/what-is-the-difference-between-bachelor-of-science-in-engineering-and-bachelor-o

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I’m proof you don’t need formal education to do well in the industry, but that being said if you have the time and money to do so, do it. To be self taught in a profession like this you have to be good and self directing your own work and learning and in my experience not everyone is good at that. It also provides time to work and learn while surrounded by other knowledgeable people that you can work with and learn from.

From my experience looking for work:
If you don’t have a educational background i will tell you right now it puts more strain on your social and networking skills, since HR will just write you off till you get experience. To get around this you need work to show off, dosnt matter of that is freelance work or your own projects, and you will have to attend industry events in your city and try to talk to the right people. In my experience when starting off, i would never even get a callback if my application was handled by a HR department, but anytime i got to talk to a technical director, or a senior engineer in person i got the job.

From my experience hiring:
I could care less about a degree, as long as you can prove you are a good programmer, and that you can fit in and work well with the team. But a degree will tell me that you can stick with things till they are done, and that is huge even if it’s not a degree that applies for the job. But on the flip side, having a good education in the field is not free job either, most people hiring will expect you to have done and learned more than just your course work. Programming is field where you should always be learning, there is always a new way to approach a problem, always some math or physics you can brush up on among other things.

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Looking at your original post again, you are going to want to start here: https://www.cs.ubc.ca/students/undergrad/prospective

You’d linked to the grad courses. You won’t get in to a 500 level course without an existing degree. With a perfect high school record you can occasionally get straight into a 200 level course. Everyone else starts off at the 100 level.

The undergrad page has a bunch of useful links that probably cover off all of your questions.

Yeah. It’s a bit of a mess.

The traditional difference between science and engineering is science focuses on knowledge and research, where engineering focuses on products and production.

A scientist is concerned with developing new knowledge. An engineer is concerned with taking existing knowledge and creating products.

In my industry it’s typically super clear which side of the line you are on. But software is a much more blurry beast.

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No, and if there are universities willing to take people without a high school diploma or equivalent then they are very likely to be questionable. It’s not at all unheard of for some to have been shut down because they were scamming their students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Technical_Institute

On the other hand many community colleges within the United States (Canada might have something similar) have programs to accept people without a high school diploma or equivalent. Ours goes under the term Ability to Benefit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ability_to_benefit

Additionally community colleges can be treated as a stepping stone. There are programs in place - both in the United States and Canada - that have you start at a community college and then transfer after two years to a university taking your course credits with you.

http://www.schoolsincanada.com/Going-from-Community-College-to-University-in-Canada.cfm

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Ok, Thank you, I had no idea there was graduate courses and non-grad. Really am sorry for freaking out, hope you can forgive me.

Ok that sounds feasible, do you know what course I should take when I get to that point? Would a person designing an engine get a degree as a Software Engineer? Or is there something more specific for game design? I’m guessing it would not include learning about programming physics engines? Anyways thank you for the info,

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Its all good. Getting your head around the university system for the first time can be difficult. Just be patient with it.

There are degrees that specifically aim at teaching game programming. But the jury is still out if these are more effective in the industry then traditional computer science.

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Unfortunately other than being aware of the processes themselves (I knew kids in high school that choose the transfer route because their finances and/or grades simply weren’t adequate to go straight into university) I don’t know anything related to a formal education for game development. Like many people here I’m self-taught.

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I dropped out of highschool after year 10 and ended up going to medical school (granted by a longer route than if id finished school). Most universities have alternative entry pathways for the basic degrees that don’t require highschool. My experience is in the australian university system, so your mileage may vary, but i’d be incredibly surprised if it were as black and white as no highschool = no university for you.

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Sure, anyone who says you can’t achieve something without having gone through high school is talking nonsense but it isn’t the lack of time spent that is hurting him. It is the lack of the diploma that comes from completing high school. While you might have dropped out I’m betting you went and got your GED, right? Ultimately he’s going to have to do the same to progress.

By the way my last completed year was tenth too. :stuck_out_tongue: