Copyright (626064)

[iamthwee]

OK let me start by thanking @Martin_H for his useful advice. At first I approached the whole copyright thing as, ‘oh well surely it doesn’t matter if I use this sound/asset, who’s gonna know…’

Here’s my dilemma, I want to productive with my games, if there are shortcuts I want to take them, I don’t want to spend a lot, and where I can I want to do it myself. But the further I get into this, under the notion that eventually, I would like my game to go live on maybe steam, the more I start to realize there is a LOT of work involved if I wanna avoid law suits.

Take for example, sounds. So I thought I need an ambient sound for my levels. The free sounds under the CC license just aren’t decent enough. So I thought why don’t I just grab an already existing ambient/string/chime source of youtube, and then I can maybe layer it with some slamming doors and bingo, I’ve got a decent atmosphere. But yes, here’s the problem it’s ripped off, someone’s gonna know and that’s a problem.

Then I got thinking, OK, what’s the work involved in creating such a sound myself? I dare to wonder down the rabbit hole and it suddenly dawns on me… the realisation that it is a LOT LOT deeper than I expected.

To create an ambient sound, I would need a midi keyboard, to play the chords and then familiarize myself with the software, such as lmms or ableton live, to further manipulate the sound.

#14 Chilling Drones :: Ableton Live

Then, I’m even thinking about the horror style font I’m using for my game and the unsurity of the license. If the font license isn’t clear, then I guess it is not safe to use unless you get specific permission. Then I thought of creating my own font, and there we go again, the rabbit hole is getting deeper and deeper.

I don’t think there has been a proper thread discussing what’s safe to use and what’s not (well there probably has at some point), and even I was surprised to find out the red cross symbol is actually forbidden to use in games. Also, textures on cgcookie, you dig deeper and find there are restrictions there, so you think about using textures you’ve photographed yourself.

Also any art which is not your own that might be in a painting on your game, you have to make sure you have the rights to include it.

With so many things to look out for, I can’t help but think… ‘this is getting a bit much? Do I really need to learn the intricacies of sound engineering and music composition just the stay the right side of the game industry.’

And the answer is, yes, yes, I actually do have to do this. What do you think when it comes to copyrighted IP in games and the lengths you have to go?

[Martin_H]

Thumbs up for starting to take these things serious!

It’s a topic that a surprising number of indie devs seem to neglect. Sadly the list of what you are allowed to use is shorter than the list of what you are not allowed to use. In general you should always assume a thing is under some kind of protection or restriction unless you know the intended use is permitted. That’s the only way to be safe in my opinion. I’m not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

I have contemplated whether it would make sense to crowdsource money and actually have a real lawyer compile a guideline for us, that holds up well enough internationally. Thoughts?

[GarBenjamin]

Yes you “have” to do it. Quotes because I have a feeling if everybody was actually doing this we would see nowhere near the amount of games on mobile and such as there are currently.

But yeah… this is a big part of what makes game dev take so much effort and time. Doing everything yourself from scratch. Of course, you can always buy assets or hire folks to help you. Just don’t take stuff from other games. Not only is it wrong to do so you also don’t know if they maybe stole the stuff from a bigger more popular game.

[zombiegorilla]

People often wonder why games take so long and cost so much. This is why. Games have a lot of stuff in them. Copyright isn’t a issue if you just create your own content or acquire content from a large reputable place, like the asset store or a direct publisher.

[neginfinity]

You’re absolutely correct on all accounts.

Also you can’t use many images off the web to make models, backgrounds and art.
For example, you cannot use data from Google Earth and street view without google’s permission - because when you model using those images you’re making a derived work.

It gets funnier.

To make a model of a building that was created past certain date, you may need permission of the architect, because building designs are copyright protected.

@iamthwee

With so many things to look out for, I can’t help but think… ‘this is getting a bit much? Do I really need to learn the intricacies of sound engineering and music composition just the stay the right side of the game industry.’

No, you need to get yourself a Sound FX guy/Composer who can do that for you.

Also, you can use CC0/public domain material you can find (some classic music is in public domain), and you’ll need to utilize content stores.

There is also some free music that can be used for commercial purposes.

Learning how to do everything on your own is not a good idea, because studying music takes time. Studying art takes time. Studying programming takes time. It is usually a better idea to make teams of people instead.

P.S. Also, Ableton Live is quite expensive, last time I checked.

[iamthwee]

Yeah

@GarBenjamin

Yes you “have” to do it. Quotes because I have a feeling if everybody was actually doing this we would see nowhere near the amount of games on mobile and such as there are currently.

But yeah… this is a big part of what makes game dev take so much effort and time. Doing everything yourself from scratch. Of course, you can always buy assets or hire folks to help you. Just don’t take stuff from other games. Not only is it wrong to do so you also don’t know if they maybe stole the stuff from a bigger more popular game.

Yeah, even my supposedly safe to use wallpaper on my walls which I got by searching in google images, ‘old tileable wallpaper’ is in fact not even legit to use, so I have to go ahead and find one which is or create my own.

[Mwsc]

If you don’t have the ability to create everything yourself, and the free stuff isn’t good enough, and you don’t have the money to pay for what you want, then maybe ask yourself what is it that you consider yourself to be, and play to your strengths. Are you a programmer? Are you a level designer? Or a game-mechanic designer? If so, forget about good graphics and good sound, just do the simplest thing, make it yourself, and make the game fun using whatever it is you bring to the table. My bias is that we need to specialize. Nobody has time to be a world-class professional at art AND programming AND level design. A lot of people on these forums seem to think that “game creation” is a skill, when really it is an application of other skills.

[iamthwee]

To make a model of a building that was created past certain date, you may need permission of the architect, because building designs are copyright protected.

Man, when they made assassin’s creed ‘Paris’ they must have had to go through a wad of paper work/copyright to recreate Paris?

No, you need to get yourself a Sound FX guy/Composer who can do that for you.

Yes if you can afford it and you’re serious about game development, you’re right.

I must admit when you see those kickstarter’s game pledge for 1/4 million in revenue, I thought to myself how the hell could anyone need that much? Now it is all starting to make sense, a full time salary for a sound engineer + game developer + artist quickly adds up doesn’t it.

[GarBenjamin]

@iamthwee

Yeah

Yeah, even my supposedly safe to use wallpaper on my walls which I got by searching in google images, ‘old tileable wallpaper’ is in fact not even legit to use, so I have to go ahead and find one which is or create my own.

Yeah a lot of people seem to make that mistake. I have seen so many videos out there where without a moment’s hesitation the person says “we need to get a texture let’s go to Google” (Bing or whatever), searches “okay here is one that looks fine” and just takes it and uses it. No checking into it at all. Nothing.

Even though the search engines are bringing back all of these images and such they are only doing it because their goal is to index all of the content on the Internet. That’s it. But for games and such 99.99% of it is completely unusable and therefore useless. I actually don’t see the point in why they even index such things and bring them back at all since they are nothing useful in any way to anyone except their creator in the majority of cases. But you can always look at them for free I guess. Which to me is still basically pointless.

[zombiegorilla]

@iamthwee

Yeah

Yeah, even my supposedly safe to use wallpaper on my walls which I got by searching in google images, ‘old tileable wallpaper’ is in fact not even legit to use, so I have to go ahead and find one which is or create my own.

If you are planning working in the visual arts for the long term, start building your own library reference/stock. I have stuff that I go back to even after many years. Some of is photos I have taken, stock/clipart libraries I have bought and a ton of stuff that I created that I didn’t use for one reaon or a another. I have also have a small collection of sounds that are the same. I have a drive called “Trantor”, which all this stuff is stored, I and I know that anything in there is totally safe for me to use.

I would suggest these 3 books as a starter:
http://www.amazon.com/Flourish-Banner-Frame-Ornaments-Illustration/dp/1440302596
http://www.amazon.com/Drip-Dot-Swirl-Incredible-illustration/dp/1600611346
http://www.amazon.com/Crumble-Crackle-Burn-Stunning-Illustration/dp/1581809581

I manage to use something from one of them in nearly every project I do. That wallpaper image would a breeze to create with a couple of flourishes and some nice grungy textures.

[QFSW]

@GarBenjamin

Yeah a lot of people seem to make that mistake. I have seen so many videos out there where without a moment’s hesitation the person says “we need to get a texture let’s go to Google” (Bing or whatever), searches “okay here is one that looks fine” and just takes it and uses it. No checking into it at all. Nothing.

Even though the search engines are bringing back all of these images and such they are only doing it because their goal is to index all of the content on the Internet. That’s it. But for games and such 99.99% of it is completely unusable and therefore useless. I actually don’t see the point in why they even index such things and bring them back at all since they are nothing useful in any way to anyone except their creator in the majority of cases. But you can always look at them for free I guess. Which to me is still basically pointless.

If you’re making stuff privately for yourself then all of that could easily come in useful - it isn’t completely useless
Also, placeholders; i used placeholders for all my art while prototyping which ive now replaced

[Martin_H]

@GarBenjamin

But you can always look at them for free I guess. Which to me is still basically pointless.

For artists doing their own work this easy source of reference material is very valuable. E.g. looking at a bunch of real tanks to get a better idea how they are built and what details they have to then design your own tank without copying any one specific reference.

[zombiegorilla]

@GarBenjamin

Yeah a lot of people seem to make that mistake. I have seen so many videos out there where without a moment’s hesitation the person says “we need to get a texture let’s go to Google” (Bing or whatever), searches “okay here is one that looks fine” and just takes it and uses it. No checking into it at all. Nothing.

Even though the search engines are bringing back all of these images and such they are only doing it because their goal is to index all of the content on the Internet. That’s it. But for games and such 99.99% of it is completely unusable and therefore useless. I actually don’t see the point in why they even index such things and bring them back at all since they are nothing useful in any way to anyone except their creator in the majority of cases. But you can always look at them for free I guess. Which to me is still basically pointless.

It is incredibly useful for reference though, indispensable even. I know what wine press is (for example), but really know clue as to what it exactly looks like. Google images to the rescue.

[zombiegorilla]

@Martin_H

For artists doing their own work this easy source of reference material is very valuable. E.g. looking at a bunch of real tanks to get a better idea how they are built and what details they have to then design your own tank without copying any one specific reference.

Beat me to it.

[GarBenjamin]

Ha ha. You’re right. I have used them for references too. But then that whole derivative thing made say to heck with that even.

[drewradley]

Google images has a function to let you see only those that are “labeled for reuse” and “labeled for reuse with modification.” Don’t know how reliable it is though.

[zombiegorilla]

@QFSW

If you’re making stuff privately for yourself then all of that could easily come in useful - it isn’t completely useless
Also, placeholders; i used placeholders for all my art while prototyping which ive now replaced

Just a bit of advice, from the “learning the hard way” category…
Never, ever use placeholder text, images, sound or art that wouldn’t want the whole world to see. Whether infringing, or just plain embarrassing, things go wrong (could even result in a lawsuit). Stuff gets overlooked, reverted or mixed up. Use grey boxes doodles on a sticky for placeholder.

[iamthwee]

@drewradley

Google images has a function to let you see only those that are “labeled for reuse” and “labeled for reuse with modification.” Don’t know how reliable it is though.

Not very I’d imagine.

@zombiegorilla yeah I could easily create that in illustrator/photoshop, it’s just more work than I was bargaining for

[iamthwee]

Also @zombiegorilla (not sure if you have a NDA settlement) for your marvel game, how did you get the IP, did you have to recreate all models from scratch (you or your team) did you have to be careful even if you have full IP to marvel what you could or could not use?

[Kiwasi]

@iamthwee

Also @zombiegorilla (not sure if you have a NDA settlement) for your marvel game, how did you get the IP, did you have to recreate all models from scratch (you or your team) did you have to be careful even if you have full IP to marvel what you could or could not use?

Working for the IP owner helps.

@zombiegorilla

Just a bit of advice, from the “learning the hard way” category…
Never, ever use placeholder text, images, sound or art that wouldn’t want the whole world to see. Whether infringing, or just plain embarrassing, things go wrong (could even result in a lawsuit). Stuff gets overlooked, reverted or mixed up. Use grey boxes doodles on a sticky for placeholder.

This. Placeholder art shoul be “something I threw together in paint”. It’s main purpose is to tell the difference between various items in early development.

And while it’s harder to prove or prosecute, using a ripped assets in development is still illegal.