This is inspired by a thread I came across earlier in which people were discussing the use of illegitimate software for making games. (The one about ZBrush and Maya 2K11 training) and I have mixed feelings on the subject and I’m just interested in other peoples views.
Although it is obviously illegal and naughty, I don’t question peoples motives. I mean, why should they pay for it if tonnes of others have it and didn’t pay anything? Take ZBrush for example, yeah it feels great knowing that I own this piece of software and people who have pirated it probably feel really bad (even though they are £500 better off), I ultimately ask myself whether anybody will know that this particular model was made inside of a cracked version? The answer is no, they will not. It’s becoming so unbelievably common now that I think it’s fair to say that potentially up to 50% of software people own today is illegitimate.
Take Unity for example, I don’t know whether it’s possible to get an illegitimate pro version, but I’ve certainly seen videos on youtube of single people no older than 20 with this £1000 version. Maybe they have got it properly, who am I to judge? But does anybody really know? And can anybody prove it?
Please tell me your views on the subject because I’m really interested in hearing other peoples opinions…
THANKS
Software isn’t a physical object. A pirate can use it, without paying for it, and the vendor won’t lose anything, if the pirate wasn’t going to pay, anyway. If you pirate software because you can’t afford it, but you plan on purchasing a license for it when you can, then I don’t see anything wrong with it – using it should only help you to be able to pay for it. If you use paid software, and you like it, and you never plan on paying for it, though, you’re trash.
I can’t see the rationale for pirating Unity, though. If you make money with your Unity content, then it’s likely UT will find out that you pirated it. And if you don’t make money with it, then you probably don’t need anything but the free license.
Basically if you are in a registered company you will have to do everything legally. No serious business person will risk their company over software license.
Adobe and other companies will often provide cheap education licenses and often students don’t pay anything for them so it’s not uncommon for people to have Photoshop for free without breaking the law. The reason they do this is because everyone in art will be proficient in Photoshop and companies will find that most of their prospective employees know how to use it so they end up buying site licenses for their offices and they can’t afford not to so Adobe crank up the prices.
In the end it comes down to this: Adobe don’t care if individuals use their software for free because it just locks them into using their software forcing companies to buy Adobe software where most of their income comes from.
Ever wondered why offices only use Microsoft Excel? It’s because schools only teach kids how to use this brand of software.
So yeah, if you’re a professional you’ll own legal software, if you’re not, no one cares.
A guy that works for Autodesk told me that they really don’t care about pirates. The only thing that bothers them to take legal action is when the software is pirated and then used to make money.
Sure that one is not cause Lotus should have died in the last century and Open Office is not half a replacement due to the lack of business addons, VB scripting and possibility to bind it against access and MSSQL which in a business environment is much more important than for home users where the difference is much smaller to inexistant (I use a continously getting more complex and sophisticated Apple Numbers spreadsheet for book keeping, forecast, investment budget prediction, tax estimate put aside, etc for example, not cause I hate or don’t own office as I own 2007 Pro Plus, its more cause I have my business stuff and com all on osx and office 2008 mac just came around too late)
And I agree with jessy that whenever you use something and make money, buy it or GTH / GL, cause expecting others to pay for yours while you didn’t pay for the tool that allowed you to create it is no acceptable business ethics
On one hand, you are not compensating people for their work.
On the other hand, YOU ARE NOT SUPPORTING THE COMPETITION.
Take a simple, and common example: Games.
If I spend years and years developing a game and release it - many of my sales will be lost to other ‘better’ games that have dozens of millions in funding. I offer a better price, I offer trials, I offer no DRM etc. None of that matters because x% of people will simply play the ‘best’ game possible irrespective of these factors.
Flash games for example, their pay comes from how many page-views they get. Every single time someone plays a desktop game instead for example, they lose money - in this case because of unfair, unsustainable competition.
Same thing in the Linux world - people would rather pirate MS instead of using Linux, and Linux looses out on market-share (which = resources).
So, in difference to Jessy:
This is my main dislike of piracy - it removes an extremely important competitive advantage of other software packages.
The problem with piracy is that it is impossible to write a catch-all sentence that would condemn it or praise it; you would need several thick books worth of discussion to break it down. But here is my attempt to give 3 pro’s and the 3 cons to piracy (keeping it as simple as possible):
THE GOOD:
Piracy is good because…
Those that cannot afford it now will likely purchase it later. These are honest pirates who can’t afford something but for whatever reason need it to achieve a goal. Sometimes risks must be taken, and this results in a revenue increase.
It trains people to use your complex software (note: I am not talking about game pirates but application and utility pirates). This makes people DEPEND on your application. This is good.
It is a way of getting people interested in your product and spreading the good word about your product or game. For every 100 people who pirated angry birds on a jailbroken phone, another 200-300 heard about it and bought it because it was so cheap.
THE BAD:
Piracy is bad because…
It directly results in less copies sold, overall even if you count the number of people who are honest and buy after they try. It can murder game indie developers, not app indie developers.
It pushes the industry into an arms race with copy protection techniques to the point that eventually games will just be remote streamed, and you will end up paying more than ever since there will not be physical copies.
Piracy directly causes price hikes.
You will note that I am pretty passionately opinionated that utilities and production software actually benefit from piracy, while games are in every single way, harmed by piracy. This is because once a game is out, there is no real reason for you to go back to that company, or require their services beyond the entertainment you stole.
However in the case of utilities and applications, especially those which are mantained on a regular basis like unity or maya, I fully believe that because the product is mantained so well, it is in the pirate’s benefit to eventually go legal. And there is a far higher chance of this happening if they have had the chance to fully learn from a pirate copy. Unity handles this extremely well with the indie licenses. However Maya doesn’t.
I don’t have monetary issues: I can afford whatever I want so for me, actually buying the product is far easier than pirating the product. I feel that is most likely the case for anyone. However, when it comes to games, there is no “noble cause” behind someone pirating it. It is done purely for entertainment, not to learn from, and in my eyes it is theft. While I consider application piracy as theft also, at least there is a benefit to both parties, indirectly.
Its my belief that most application pirates will in the end if they are serious or intent on publishing their work, purchase. While that will never happen with a game, and it can mean the death of a small indie game developer.
The main problem I see with piracy is it’s hard to compete against it. It’s completely free, no restrictions, and backed by a damn effective way of finding what you want.
Piracy does more harm than good. The older I’ve gotten the more I think this is true. When I was younger I used to pirate everything, now I try to buy what I can and ignore what I can’t buy.
I guess piracy would be less of a problem in the gaming field if a few problems the big players in the industry brought in would be approached finally:
Favoring eye candy and graphic sluttiness over content, but expecting to get payed the same or more - This is just bullocks, why should anyone consider it fair to pay 2x of what you payed for games some years ago, when the average gameplay is 20% and less of back then?
Digital distribution missuse on the large scale - USD → EUR conversation on 1:1 ratio (although its a 40% delta), applying VAT in countries that don’t have VAT (on steam), prices on digital platforms that are equal or higher than the price of the physical game medium although the whole distribution chain costs are out
No post launch support unless its a major crash bug, not even if the game balance is totally fucked up or if the ai is that stupid that you should call it AS (artificial stupidity)
Game lifetimes that are a joke. Yearly “updates” at fullprice or game rereleases with 10% more content at fullprice (Street Fighter 4 anyone, EA Sports yearly 10% updates while not offering updated roosters for previous version …)
“Pop Music Paradigm”: More and more half arsed and crap games, with the target to get the user to buy at least one, to have at least one game at any time in the “new games” list and shelve, instead of creating higher quality and more interesting games at a lower rate.
Releasing games with half the content basically to sell the rest as addon content through steam or through the consoles store or as real addon within a handfull of months (unrealistic to assume anyone would believe its an addon. For a game title that takes 2+ years to create you will not come up with an addon with story etc etc in 4 months, you obviously worked on it before release instead of working on the title itself)
Its a shame that indies have to pay for this, on the other hand we got mobile gaming where the big players have major problems getting a hold off due to the prices and their 500k-5M budgets which can make each game a major lose at worst and with OSX 10.7, OSX will likely become a more interesting field for all Indies that are able to target it as well.
I personally buy whats worth it and skip the rest but thats little. And I normally have to do it in UK cause the prices here in switzerland (as germany) are beyond any realistic thinking with $90 for a pc title and beyond $110 for console titles (thats inc taxes but we only have 8% mwst). digital is no option either as Steam collects VAT although there is none for us, making games that already went through the above mentioned USD → EUR unfairness another 20% more expensive.
Yeah, I knew someone to, they don’t really mind to much because the pirates are gonna learn how to use their software, and then the pirates go out and get jobs at companies that use that software, and the more people that know how to use their software, the more people in the industry are going to use it. I think if you’re just gonna muck around with it and weren’t going to pay for it anyway and not make any money from it, it’s ok.
I don’t see it that way, because if the free alternative were good, people would use it. There’s no point in going through the hassle of piracy if a good, painless, free alternative exists.
One aspect of Piracy that did not get mentioned yet:
Piracy is about being able to make an informed decission.
The question:
Can a person really make an informed decission unless he has played Game A from START to FINISH?
Can a person really make an informed decission unless he has watched Movie A from START to FINISH?
My answers:
I would say no.
Unless you look in the box you don’t know if the cat is alive/dead.
The Joke:
It’s like going into a bar and seing this hot lady, but the moment you undress her you get a big surprise.
The Argument:
But there are demos!
-Yes but unless you watched the full movie, how are you able to make an informed decision if the experience is worth your 10$ or not.
-That’s why marriage fail so often now a days, because they make decissions without having all the information that is necessary for an informed decission.
Let me know what you think?
Btw has anybody ever tried having a buy button at the end of the game, instead of before the game?
There are good products out there, the problem is they don’t have sufficient advantage when compared to products that cost 10’s of millions or even billions to make.
Listen to some of the things people are saying about piracy:
Pirates arbitrarily removing the ability from the producer to decide whether or not he will allow you to pay upfront or after a ‘review’. By doing this, they remove the competitive advantage of companies that give you this option and therefor ultimately end up in a world where no-one offers it (why would they, there is no market for it).
It is all good and well to say that pirates want to ‘review’ something or that they want it ‘DRM’ free, or whatever excuse of the week it is. If you honestly wanted to do it you would deal with the companies that give you these services. Instead pirates like the result the traditional system provides, dislike the rules, pirate, and remove demand for innovation.
Well I’m sorry thats not how life works. Your example is completely broken because if I pay for my ticket at the cinema and decided I didn’t like the movie because I didn’t like the ending, does that mean I should get it for free?
Thats just stupidity.
You’re saying piracy is about being able to make an informed decision. It is not. The fact is, life is full of risk, and every payment you make comes with risk. You buy a candy bar, thats a risk. Maybe you won’t like it after you’ve eaten it? tough.
Maybe 3DSMax is too expensive and can’t be compared with a candy bar? but thats not our problem you think its expensive. Thats your problem. And you shouldn’t have the right to pee all over that just because you’re too poor to take the risk. I don’t mind a pirate thats honest: “I can’t afford it, simple as that. So I’ve just stole it, end of story.” I can even respect it.
But I can’t respect bullsh*t justification like what you’ve posted. That is just insulting people’s intelligence.
I started laughing at this point. Was it intentional?
I resent your reply quoting me out of context. I am talking about education and putting money back into the market, not reviewing it. You took my quote which was:
In context of:
But you’ve decided that I’m talking about demos and removing the ability from the producer to decide. I am not even discussing that ability to decide or demos. I am talking about the pirate stealing it outright. I am not talking about morals here. I am pointing out that even though it WAS stolen, this can benefit a major app developer such as Autodesk, who seem to know about this and its working for them rather well at the moment.
Why not just not quote someone next time, unless your reply actually is a reply, instead you should post an entirely new post that doesn’t have quotes for no reason on the planet.
Let me ask you this, would you have bought the ticket if you knew you would not like the movie?
You could have invested the same 10$ (example price) into a movie you would acctually like.
Everybody would win, you because you got to see a movie you liked. The producer because he knows that you liked his movie.
The other producer (bad movie) because he knows that he will have to produce better movies, if he wants to have more people watch his movies. The cinema and so on.
Well to stay with your cinema / candybar example:
There is 3 Movies playing at the Cinema (A,B,C), and you have a budget of 10$ each one costs 10$.
Which one would you pick? (this is an extreme case of information imbalance)
Since in any situation where there is an information imbalance, it’s impossible to make an informed decission.
It’s an educated guess at best and gambling at worst.
An everyday example of information imbalances are used car dealerships.
There is 3 cars, each one cost 1000$. The dealer has all the information knows excactly, which of the cars are lemons and which are not.
Even if you know alot about cars, you can still mereally make an educated guess.
One interesting example in the history of the internet is, how it embowered the customer as well as how it slowly makes the information imbalance smaller and smaller. Which in turn hit the retail market hard, because they needed to find a way to be competitive. Before the internet, 2 shops in neighbour citys could have a price difference of 200%
Now a days that’s not possible anymore since the information imbalance beetwen customer and producer is getting smaller and smaller.
Ofcourse it’s still not perfect, as we still are only able to make educated guesses.
But we are getting there, and hopefully in the future we will all have access to the same information so that we are able to make an informed decission.
I point out, that there is an information imbalance between customer and producer.
And you immediatly reason, that I must be poor as well as an unsocial person.
Seriously?
The part with marriages I acctually meant that realisticly speaking.
But it’s okay if you don’t agree, that’s what discussion are all about.
To learn and read/hear other peoples opionions/viewpoints.
on my side, in france, all softwares used to create a game ( which must be paid ) are really expensive ! buying a “studio desktop " is as much expensive as buying a little car. This could be compared to “taxi license” for individual. On my side, at the beginning i used only cracked or demo versions : only one reason : even in educational version ( means really not expensive ), a french student needs to be in a “private high school” to get the hability to own an educational software ( 5000 euros a year !!! the price of 3DS max in france ). I’ve never been able to pay 15 000 euros for the 3 years of school. So meanwhile, i worked on cracked versions and i learnt a lot as autodidact ( but it was really longer than being at school ). I finally decided to become a professionnal, means i had to buy all the softwares i use ( i’m still getting back the money …) And yeah ! i did it ! all belong to me, i’m a graphical studio indie, and i make some money.
It depends where you live but i believe that pirates know that if they make too much money it could be dangerous for their” anonymousness “.
I think “hackers” know that, usually, hackers team leaves a.txt explaining this simple thing :” if you like this product , buy it ! ". They only try to help different kind of people while pirates want to make money with their good will.
Can people just stop trying to reinvent the economy by basing themselves on piracy ?
Look, trying to search for a reason to make everything the most cheaper possible is not right. It is not the good direction to build an economy, because it is based around customer’s profit. Therefore it would be the customer who would draw the rules of an economy.
Therefore no. Just no. It is not the customer who decides those rules. It is the producer. So it is the producer who decides the price of his products.
The customer decides to buy or not, and by this choice can drive an economy’s stability, but the rules, the very rules are not under his control.
So please, whenever someone tries to revinvent the wheels of economy, may it be for digital medias, cars, beers, or waffles, put yourself in the role of the guy who creates and sells the product first. The guy who has the right to consciously decide the rules.
When you pay for something, you don’t pay for the right to decide if it’s good or bad. You don’t pay for the right to act like a king who gives a penny to his minstrel. You pay for the right to use it. Period.
And it’s at your own risk.
If you use a pirated software to educate yourself in it there isn’t a problem. And that is why autodesk doesn’t chase individuals using a pirated version of 3dsmax or maya unless they release commerical products using their tools. Autodesks success is dependent on people being skilled at using their product period. If maya had a bullet proof copy protection but 3dsmax didn’t which software do you think would be dominant at companies? right 3dsmax ofcourse. Sure you can take the moral approach and say “Piracy is always wrong” but that doesn’t change reality.
