If you ever could have known how much work it is making games, would you still have pursued it?

News & General Discussion
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I don’t think about any of that. I’ve been there, done that and worried about what the world wants. That doesn’t work. Now, I just make games for me, my way, with my brother and Simian Squared. We just jam, we have a laugh, we work hard… If we like something we put it in. It’s constantly iterated on, throughout the development process. We lean on the strongest parts of being indie: the freedom to make a decision about the design, the freedom to change whatever you damn well feel like. And change we do. The UI part (which is an integral part of the game) has had months. It’s still not there yet, we keep tinkering and improving. The gameplay has evolved through 3 different codebases to be where it is today.

In short, the next game we are doing, is entirely whatever we want it to be. We didn’t ask anyone their opinion and we’re not going to ask anyone their opinion. We’re just making it exactly the fun that pleases us the most, it’s a kind of deep indie honesty that AAA will never, ever be able to touch, and I’m making the most of it.

Once it’s finished, it’ll undergo peer review, and we’ll take people’s thoughts on board (testers etc) - about what parts are too hard, or easy, bugs and things they didn’t understand. But the game? the game is what we want, nobody else.

And that’s a good thing.

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@TylerPerry I’ve never played any of those 3 games you mentioned, because I think most games suck anyway. Flappy bird ripped off Super Mario. Everybody loves Super Mario, young and old. Last of Us was a movie that you play/watch, I’m not sure what to do with something like that but most people are like “why the hell not”. Slender/Amnesia/Resident Evil: Nemesis… horror, survival always a big hit with human beings from planet Earth as long as they’re well put together.

Really, honestly… it’s not all that complicated to see why things worked after the fact.

It’s sad. It’s like rock n’ roll. Still the best music on earth, but we become… numb to it? To this day though, if you could produce a killer rock album and promote yourself well, you could be famous. So it’s not that there’s not a formula, or that it’s a mystery… I mean in games, in media, in marketing… we can tell what works but I think a mixture of fear, uncertainty prevents people from pursuing their goals and then of course, it’s a lot of hard work so not everybody has what it takes to finish their game.

I think if I took any random aspiring game designer and somehow could produce their #1 favorite game idea the way they envision it in their head, it would probably rule. But imagination isn’t enough in the real world, I suppose. You gotta have backbone, too.

@hippocoder Say what you want about old Notch but he committed to his idea and he finished it. He quit his job to spend more time working on it. The man has a very high IQ, there’s no doubt he’s some sort of genius… some sort. We can say something like “he didn’t know if his game was going to succeed or not, but he still went for it and we can all learn from that” but that’s phony. Show your game to ten people. What they think, that’s what everybody is going to think. His play testers were probably losing sleep and inviting their friends to play.

That’s why I never finished anything. I knew none of my past ideas, in the form I could realize them, were worth anything. I knew it. You know. You always know. Do something ordinary well and you can succeed. But that’s the thing… doing it well. What does it even mean, sometimes? That’s why I’ve spent so much time studying games, game feel, game theory (to a small extent) and why I’m continuing to learn. There’s no guide posts in creativity. You just… do things. Nobody can tell you if what you’re doing is going to work or not until they’ve seen something.

My goal is to not be a “one-hit wonder” (or a zero-hit “wonder” lol) but to really be able to consistently produce quality. It’s possible. There’s no point for me, then, to just throw stuff at the wall and see what fits… or flop around… I need to be able to have more control than that.

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I don’t even understand you dude. Many of these things are your opinions and other things are just plain wrong.

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Yeah well, I’ve got to the point in life where I’ve said “fuck it, I know what’s good. It’s time to trust myself”. If people dig what we’re doing here, then they will really dig it. It’s intense. But if they don’t like it, well that’s OK as well because I’d rather cause intense happiness or dislike. The worst thing would be indifference.

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Well, my name is not “dude”. Honestly, it can’t be that difficult to refer to me by my user name… it’s literally at the left of every post I’ve made so far.

I, along with many others, I’m sure, am already aware that I have shared my opinions. Thank you for confirming that for the entire world. There might have been some confusion.

As for the things I’ve said that are “just plain wrong” I’m sure you’ll be enlightening me at a later time, since you clearly were unable to elaborate at the moment.

*edited before @KheltonHeadley_1 responded, that was fast :face_with_spiral_eyes:

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Dude, clearly you misread what I said. I never said your opinions were wrong. You’re saying things that don’t make sense or are wrong. So Dude, read every word next time.

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I think this is key. Do what you do. And really, really do it to the nth degree. Make people who don’t like that sort of game angry, to the point they have to comment how much it “sux”. Make fans of that type of game experience gaming nirvana every second they play… but you’re so right. If people just look at it and say, “Aaanyways, I left my phone in the car…” then you’re screwed. Haha.

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Come on it’s not rocket science, you know what the succesful competition does. You know what production values should be to follow suite, you know what makes a story line or gameplay interesting. Nearly everyone can pick apart a game and decide if it’s good or not. I also very much agree with Hippo, if you worry about what the world wants it causes panic and your always stretching yourself to play to competitors strengths, not your own.

Tyler perry says it’s “insane” to flop about and it really isn’t, prototyping and “flopping” is probably the most essential part of game development. There are only so many cold calculated clones people can make and more often than not they fail miserably to capture the magic of the game they are cloning.

You have to enjoy what you do, or I wouldn’t even bother doing this. Hippo asked me once why don’t you do shovelware? Simple answer is, if you’re only aiming for money you’d probably have a more lucrative career in IT and I do what makes me happy.

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Loving this thread so far

It’s especially interesting seeing peoples ambitions and how they intend to get there - its great that the tools are getting so good, an affordable (Quixel) that while still needing strong skills - with those skills you can create great things

I’m at a weakness by going solo, and my ambitions are high, but im getting the hang of deciding how to manage priorities, and as hipocoder says, how to make games that i myself will love. I’m doing a stepping stone approach where i’ll set a goal, probably not get there satisfactorily, ‘flop’, reappropriate my priorities to come back to that at a later time

It’s still ongoing, i never forget an idea i have real passion for, and i do the above process until i know where i can get a grip on the skills and learn a lot - And this is hard because im in a flat in england, not a well staffed studio, i have no real back and forth banter with colleagues and hence am always behind and frustrated at seeming ignorant and dim while simply not having the time to fully investigate something

The process is compelling, the path to where i want to go could be up to 10 years in the future, there’ll be side projects to warm me up in some area, installation-type work that can remain pretty prototypical so long as it runs on my computer, but as detailed in my previous post its endlessly compelling, and cant let myself not get there, and i have some ambition

I know what this medium can give, as work like the oculus rift and such narrow the divide between our self and an avatar, i couldnt just watch that happen and just stand by. My trumph card is that in some ways, money is not a concern, nor is free time, and if i was under pressure as a subordinate on a game i couldnt give a crap about things would be different, but things are as they are and ill take the opportunity, and i hope even those with financial concerns will get what they want made to a personally gratifying best - just so they can say that that piece was theirs

The medium is in its infancy, ‘AAA’ games remind us how childish it still is, but the indies are still the trailblazers, opening opportunities to experiences things that could not even be conceived of before seeing it - its exciting!

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I forgot to add, an example of truly inspiring-looking indie ambition is Hello Games’ move to making No Man’s Sky, quite a crazy step up from previous work, small young team, making something truly impressive, and the artwork couldn’t be more perfect, this coming from a big fan of 70s and 80s scifi films and books

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As I always say, if worked on making a game instead in the time I play games, lay in bed farting, boozing and losing, posting nonsense on unity gossip forums, and otherwise wasting my time, then I would have 20 games finished all AAA quality and I would be able to purchase a small country.

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You’re skiled then! I do little but work and don’t get to finish anything

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Well, yes.

I am almost done after 5 years of learning math, programming, user testing/experiences and so on at University’s, and the last two (my master degree) have been with a specific focus on games programming.

Besides that ive dedicated a lot of time learning how to create games, worked at a games company for free to learn even more, and now i formed a company with six others which will release our first game through Steam this year!

It has taken it tolls to be where i want to be, but i love creating games, solving all these small problems you bump into.

But it also depends on what games you want to work with. Some mobile games are rather simple - however personally i don’t find them exciting at all, and that is why the first game we will release at my company is an online competitive multiplayer voxel engine based platform shooter crazy game - it has been really hard to create this game but i loved (almost) every part of it!

Will i be in the games business forever? Not sure. Got a girlfriend and is at an age where you consider starting a family, so if i can balance the two (it can be done, specially in Denmark) i will, else i go program somewhere else in the IT business :smile:

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@BFGames

I’d go work in another industry, earn a crap ton of money and then come back to making games, there is nothing worse than working on a shoestring budget hoping you’re going to make it. Chances are most won’t and I also agree with Khrid it’s extremely difficult but not impossible to make AAA quality games as a one man band nowadays. Thing is again you need a crap ton of money for all the tools to automate and speed up most of the process also you have to at least have a steady skill in every area.

I’d avoid going to work for a AAA company in this day an age, the IT sector will pay more / take up way less of your time and you’ll be treated a hell of a lot nicer.

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That will be because you’re too obsessed with water :smile:

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Haha, its okay, i managed to kick the habit a bit and in fact started researching things heavily that i thought would be helpful (and were) esp cause it helped me with the language needed to express, say, a shader implementation with a shader writer and stay on the same page

Still hoping to make the best goddamn ocean water ever conceived of but until reality stops working i’m getting a lot of education in new approach to shading,learning the language for each discipline it might involve, and finally after some years get stuck into 3D modelling like a mania, it looks a bunch of fun these days (That is, relatively, when i was at uni it could be a pain in the arse). One step at a time! Merging ideas as they get a footing towards further ideas and getting my art right up there in a quality i’d try to call likeable.I keep saying it though, Quixel, QuixelQuixel. Much more learning to do this year before anything solid transpires, but patience is a virtue and with the hope of the new suite coming out i can pretty much attack my intended art with confidence in great great tools

I wouldnt go anywhere near ‘AAA’ whatever that is really as a one man army, you will burnt out a long long time before you got anything worth anything done. With a strong spread of skills i think a one man-er can do some very surprising things, im hoping im one of these guys, sometimes i’m really feeling it, see the perfect image setup, then it goes, but i know it was there now time to read up about it

No real financial problems and freedom to do as i like has allowed me a pretty enjoyable ability for patience so long as i can keep working. Unity can make some lovely stuff and given i use timeframes of ten years since age 15 or so in terms of getting skills for a result far in the future (I deliberately based my education starting 17 endig at 22 to cover theatre, sociology, language, computer science, psychology, philosophy), its just important that i keep my passion for my ideas… theres another problem - as a one-maner, tell an adept programmer friend youre doing something cool and ask if he wants to help out, he might go sure until you tell him/her you’re working on 3 seperate developments that are simply skillbuilding to become strong enough to take on the really ambitious ideas in bugger knows how many years. He’ll generally go ‘er, sorry gotta go do my hair’ or something

Doesnt help when your ideas are mostly paper notes and directories full of white papers and books, and it’s hard to impress anyone into your mighty ambitions when ive got very fancy looking stuff but absoutely no point showing anyone (This is classic motivation obliteration if you do this), and as a one man thing, no colleages to discuss things with (as mentioned before) - i think thats where i fare worst, colleagues are going to help you out a bunch more than trying to figure something out from a cold start

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If you wanted to make serious games for a living wouldn’t a AAA studio expose you to the people/skills you need to build? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve worked in IT my whole life and my “crunch times” are few and far between once I reached a certain level of seniority, nothing like what I read about in games industry. But it seems like if your goal was to start or join a small studio the AAA experience would be invaluable, much like how many senior IT people end up as consultants in later years.

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The game I’m making now is taking longer than I wanted to. So yeah sometimes I wish I never started. But other times I look at it and think, “this game is amazing!” if i do say so myself. :slight_smile:

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most likely on an AAA game you will have experience of building one very very tiny part of the game. If you wanted experience of building a whole game, better to join an indie or app company. But it depends what you like doing.

For example you might get put on the team responsible for databases for the high scores. That won’t teach you much about making a game.