What you want vs what will sell?

News & General Discussion
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We’re in the business of making money eventually right? Some of us are already doing so - to which I congratulate you on. I hope to be successful like you someday. That being said, I’d like a brief chat on the title.

I got into this hobby, because I was modding a PC game every day my freshmen year of HS. This was back in 2006, I think. I didn’t get into Unity until well after. Over the course of time, I gradually had to lower my expectations in-order to align my ideas with my skills. I feel as though I’m at a comfy level to produce games I wanted to all those years ago. However, I don’t believe many people will be into them. Here’s two for example:

NOTE* I should clarify that these are screenshots from Fighting Cup and Zero Divide. Not well known games originally produced for N64 and PS1. While I certainly didn’t make these, I can make assets quite similar to them. They were my original inspirations.

I’m smitten with the era of the 90’s. MM/OOT are another two I’d love to make my own rendition of.

I look at easier pursuits like Who’s your Daddy?, Amazing Frog? and think to myself - I could make these, I want profits. But I’m bored, I don’t want to make these games. Just thinking of it now, perhaps it’s because I lack original ideas. That I’m drawing inspiration from a previous source. Idk.

What does everyone else think? Do you think about producing games for other people or yourself? How do you stay motivated if you’re not personally interested?

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Can you explain a bit more about what you mean here?

On one hand I could interpret this as “I want to make games that make me rich”, where money is the end goal. On the other hand I could interpret this as “making money allows me to increase the scope of my games”, where money is a necessary part of the process of a creative pursuit. Or it could be somewhere in the middle.

You call it a hobby, but you’re asking about making money. So… is it a hobby or is it a business? You need to figure that out and start behaving accordingly. If it’s a hobby, stop spoiling it for yourself by letting the idea of money get in the way. If it’s a business, stop tying a hand behind your back by behaving as if it’s all fun and games.

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Rather than what will sell, the real question is closer to what can you sell. Can you market it?

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Well no, not really, not in any real sense.

Some of us have day jobs that cover off the money requirement pretty well. Unity truly is a hobby for me. Sure I’ve made a couple thousand dollars from it over the last few years. And I wouldn’t object to making more money. But ultimately how much money I make from Unity has a marginal effect on the family budget. I deliberately gave up the focus on money some time ago.

Honestly if money is your objective, its probably worth getting a job and working for someone else. Virtually all of the successful ‘indie’ developers I’ve met are small teams. Get a role where you can do what you do well, and have other people do the rest. Once you have a name for yourself you can lead a team yourself.

Single developer success stories are incredibly rare. Teams and specialisation seem to be the way to go.

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I do not remember where I got this diagram, but I think it sums up game design nicely:

2877020--211012--finishgame02.jpg

Figure out that sweet spot in the middle, and you’re likely to solve a lot of the motivation problems for working on a game. That will keep you rolling when things seem bleak about ever making any money from games. Plus, if you are enjoying what you’re making or learning from what you are doing, the time is not any more “wasted” than playing video games or reading a book.

Moving from something like modding to making money off of games adds an additional circle to the graph of “Games I Can Market”. (In mind mind at least.)

If you find a niche in the market that is not served properly, you can sell your games. If you get lucky and get noticed, you can sell your games.

But ultimately, if you read or listen to the advice that’s given over and over, a lot of developing a business in the game industry is just like developing a business in a lot of other industries. You start small, generate some customers, build from there, expand your customer base, and hopefully survive long enough to get into the black (more money coming in than going out). It is part of why having at least a part time job or taking contract work is so often recommended: It gives you a cushion to keep you financially afloat.

In my business (not game development, unfortunately), we started with a few clients and full-time jobs. Then we added some more clients. Then we had to quit those full-time jobs. Then we were lucky enough to get to the point where we even turned down some clients.

Additionally, you have to remember that your first game on your own or as part of an ad hoc team is going to suck. Probably so is your second, third, fourth, et cetera. Many of the success stories we see focus on the win and ignore that this was the developer’s 30th or 50th or whatever high number game. That’s why I’ve come to like the theory that making a number of small, quickly built games is going to teach you a lot more than spending that same amount of time on one big game. (Vlambeer has a talk on that subject that I’m sure you could turn up with some Google-fu.)

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I’m fully aware that this is tangential to the point you were trying to make, but for the sake of worthy discussion…

Experience certainly helps you to lead a team, and without it you won’t get far. But much of the world seems to have this idea of “when I’m really good at a technical thing then it’s time to be a leader/manager”, and to me that really seems to be misguided.

Leadership and management are skills in their own right. I’m not fit to be a leader/manager because I’ve done lots of programming, but because in the past people invested in getting me leadership and management training and my being in a position to apply that training, thus getting real world leadership and management experience.

So, yes, if you want to lead your own studio then definitely get experience working on projects in a studio. That’s important. But also pay attention to the verb in there - “lead” - and realise that it requires some skill development in its own right. Being a good programmer in and of itself does not make you a good business manager or a good team leader, those things require their own dedicated practice.

Also keep in mind that time spent managing or leading is, to some degree, time spent not performing your technical skill.

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I think you’d be surprised how many people would like a retro 90’s 3D fighter. Look at all the excitement from fans from Sega’s Daytona sequel announcement (which they largely kept with retro graphics and gameplay).

I do think about the issue, though. On one hand, I have the kind of game I would like to play: a massive 40+ hour action-RPG set in a cyberpunk universe. Something I could never accomplish alone, or even with a small team. Then there are simple arcade-style mobile games I could whip up in a couple months but don’t really motivate me. And then there is something in-between. A bigger-than-mobile but not rpg-scale game, with an innovative hook, but something that is reasonable to think one person can make (maybe with help from freelancers).

It’s a fine balance, and I think the important part is picking something you can finish. I’ve worked on all sorts of pet projects that never got released, and it’s disheartening. Even crappy stuff that I’ve put out there I feel much better about than big projects that floundered and never amounted to anything.

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Totally true. One of the worst managers I’ve had was a brilliant technical person. To be fair he did apply for a technical position, but was shunted into management role during a restructuring. I’ve also had the other side, a manager with just management experience and no technical experience. This also brings its own set of problems.

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I feel a bit empty when I think only about making a game to make money. I feel like the competitiveness of the marketplaces/app stores creates a tremendous sense of every-man-for-himself … the so-called American dream, where if you’re capable, you can possibly make success, but it still all feels very lifeless at times. We have to fight with everyone else’s games, compete with their abilities, go up against masses of amazing artwork and animation, etc.

What I’m trying to learn is to spend time doing what I WANT to do - whats in my heart - even if it doesn’t mean it will make money, and to separate that out from ‘how I will make money’, or at least to have that as a ‘maybe’ at most. I can see some people are much more into doing it as a ‘business’ and to really treat it as one, but I don’t think that’s me.

The whole competitive, people-pleasing, money-seeking rat-race that’s going on now is really off putting to me. It’s not a pleasant atmosphere. It takes the fun out of it. It makes it all about winning and business and profits and being against others. It doesn’t sit well.

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I like the diagram, I noted that I left the sweet spot as I am working on a game for public release.

I originally downloaded Unity because it was free & allowed my to deploy self made games for my little son. A wonderful customer (pays not with money but with happiness). How nice it is for him to play a memory game with his own items + jokes, when he turned over the cards. I made kind of 10 mini games for him and he loves it + his friends are amazed, how his voice can be in the IPAD :slight_smile:

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You really should be working on projects you WANT to do, because otherwise you’ll regret never finishing them.

There’s niche audience for 3d fighting games.

Unless you really love money, working on projects you don’t like will only get you depressed, even if you get a lot of cash in the end.

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i tried working on crap i dont really care about, i quit it FASST

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Who’s your daddy and amazing frog are pretty unique and well thought out games. It’s easy to see how they’ve done so well. Add to that, the goat simulator, and the one where you have to save trump from the line of fire, outrageous but entertaining.

Is there a formula for steam success? I don’t know, but the more unique and outrageous the context the better it seems to do.

Great stories with great narratives and well thought out gameplay is generally what I tend to go for now. I was blown away by ‘limbo’ and likewise ‘Fran Bow.’

I think you can build games that are your passion, given your exhibited screenshots I do NOT think you’ll get a sizeable market demand, perhaps with a little more polish who knows.

Good luck

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Never forget, YOU CAN ALWAYS TEST IDEAS EARLY :slight_smile: Pitch your ideas to people and see how excited they get. put out concepts or early gameplay and see if anyone bites. You can always cut your losses early.

You’ll never know how interested people are ‘on paper’ That kind of thinking is why we all hate suits so much :wink:

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I need to meditate on this for awhile. Very insightful. Thank you.

I’ve never worked with a team before. I always felt I needed to become better. I’ll have to look around for a serious team. I have inquired about teams before, but commonly people get so lazy. Sometimes you won’t even hear from them again!

I want money, but I don’t love money. I think you’ve convinced me to remain a hobbyist.

Dude, you know it. lol

I should clarify that those are screenshots from Fighting Cup and Zero Divide. Not well known games originally produced for N64 and PS1. While I certainly didn’t make these, I can make assets quite similar to them.

If I haven’t gotten to your comment yet, I certainly will.

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To clarify, I’m not talking about joining some nebulous remote online team. They seldom work out. I’m talking about getting a job and chaining yourself to an onsite desk for 8ish hours a day.

If you join a studio that has the cash to pay you, there is a pretty good chance you will be working on games that are actually making money.

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whos your daddy isnt total trash?? i thought it was lool … and the baby can just go for the batteries, the balance is totally broken…

but then its making money and iam not…
but i care about making something quality :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: … really dont care about money as much

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@ the OP - Sorry I didn’t realise they weren’t your games.

I think it all depends on your motivation. If you look at those games… ‘Who’s your daddy’ on paper you would expect it to FLOP -shoddy graphics a really questionable gameplay objective, I could go on etc.

But the reality is, (and is backed up by sales), gamers out there are bonkers! They go for that stuff like that…and do so en masse, the target market is probably kids who just like goofing around, pewdiepie is the classic example.

Same like movies nowadays. For example, I’m a horror fan. Horror movies nowadays are packed with jump scares crazy big budget monsters. This attracts the audience and $$$. But the real aficionados appreciate the subtle psychological horror that really gets your creeped out. When you see a movie like that you say, ‘WOW that was something special.’

The tragedy is ^^these types of movies won’t attract big audiences. People will come out the cinema and say shit like,‘But where was the monster? Or I didn’t jump out of my seat.’

Same like video games.

It is possible to run with something you enjoy making and make good money, but those games are extremely rare. You have to have a really good mechanic, narrative or art style to stand out.

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I think you should build the games YOU enjoy and try to find a market for that.

There is ALWAYS a market. Question is how big is the market. The way to make money with the market you end up targetting is to get a feel for that market (market research, or starting with small quick to develop titles), and produce a game at a scope tailored to that market size.

Developing a big AAA game for a small niche market is suicide, and trying to compete in a huge market filled with AAA titles with a small Indie game is most probably futile (unless the Indie title brings a very innovative twist).

Running after trends, or developing games just to maximize profits is, IMO, a stupid idea. You will be always late to the party unless you set the trends yourself. And maximizing profits often ends up in inferior titles, F2P Pay to win balancing nightmares, and in a career that might no longer fullfill the developer as he feels more and more like an manager trying to balance analytics and psychological mind games than a creative designer creating works of art.

But, I am not saying you cannot earn quite some money going the “money grab” route. Seems to have worked fine for SOME companies in the past years, I feel mostly the ones who stayed away from p2w and used the analytics tools for more important tasks than trying to maximize profits from microtransactions (like, god forbid, to make the game more fun for more people). If it is REALLY a god idea to go after the Zynga ideal of becoming gamings shady casino underbelly, IDK. Seeing how Zynga struggles at the moment I guess only shortterm (and if you have no shame in abusing peoples gambling problems for your own gain).

In the end, only you know what drives you to create games. Do want to earn money, or create the best games you can? In the end you will always need luck. And creating games to maximize profits will also not guarantee that luck. Nailing a game when just concentrating on the best and most fun game you can make will also not guarantee you luck, but might work out just as fine overall. And you might enjoy the process way more.

Looking at your screenies, doesn’t seem to bad. Brawlers are not the biggest genres at the moment but Beat’em’up fans are not dying out soon. After the 16-bit era retro craze, there seems to be a limited 90’s retro wave, so concetrating on 90’s graphics and gameplay might not be such a bad idea, especially if you can bring a fresh twist into the formula.

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This instantly reminded me of One Must Fall. It retains some popularity or it wouldn’t have an open source remake.