And to HTML 5? - The beggining of the flash era.

I was pretty excited when i read that unity will export to Flash.

But with the news i read today, i changed my mind…

Why? Because of this news:

No support for flash in IE 10 (windows 8 )

Facebook will launch an HTML 5 App-Based platform aiming safari on iPhone (android later) - Project Spartan :

HTML5 To Overtake Flash In Three Years . Big companies already moving.

Flash with support for HTML 5

So… what does this mean for both AppStore (iOS) and Flash developers?
What does this means for unity flash exporter?
Will unity be capable to export to HTML 5?
What does this mean for apple (less revenue from games by 2013?)

I’m not thinking about TODAY. But think about mid 2012 and later…

I highly doubt HTML will ever take over flash. IE 10 won’t support flash, just like none of the previous versions supported it. IE 10 will however work with flash through plugins(which will be available on desktop versions).

HTML is definitely not going anywhere in the near future. the html5 performance is that bad on the realtime end that you could just as well shoot yourself when it comes to “interaction and games”. GameSalad as well as many other places have plentitude of games that show you on 3-5FPS on an iPAD2 how many dimensions away of “even usable on a bare level” they are and I personally consider it a must for HTML5 to offer the same on mobiles, otherwise its just “the same shit as flash but with far less experts and knowledge and a much worse browser dependent support”

html5 might be a threat on the desktop, given you find programmers interested and savy in working with it and the hell known as webbrowser delta missbehavior, but you will not have remotely the pool of talent and expertise to choose from as you have it on flash and that will definitely hold it back for quite another while. I only see HTML5 do 2 things for the time being:

  1. make new features available especially for offline webapps and alike
  2. offer CSS3 and CSS transitions on webkit based browsers

IE 10 wont have support for plugins. It will be “HTML 5 Only”.
However, there will be another version with plugins support. But the “default” version will be the “html 5 only”.

Bye “near future” you mean this year? 2012? 2013?

-Microsoft not supporting flash (nor plugins) in IE 10 and being “HTML 5 only”,
-Facebook creating an HTML5 app-based plataform for gaming in iOS trough safari (and other mobile browsers),
-Adobe creating a tool to export to HTML 5 with the same assets that flash.

Again, i’m thinking about 1 year from now (mid 2102 and later…)

All those companies cant be wrong…

HTML5 is the web. its done.

All that remains is that everyone catches up to it. Eventually it’s all html5, you don’t have to try and reason with it - it is the web standard for the internet. That’s all.

Most of our pages should be html basic and 5 before the end of year.

By contrast, flash is a popular plugin. It is not a standard or anything, it’s just a plugin. They should have had proper vector acceleration and 3D in a couple of years ago.

  1. Microsoft supports flash in IE10 but not in the metro interface, which though will pretty surely be immediately disabled anywhere but on tablets as it is totally unproductive on a desktop compared to the traditional surface

  2. near future means 12-18 months, for WebGL to become available feel free to add another 18-24 months for the mobile space if ever at all (its not in apples interest)

  3. Yes adobe has such a tech in beta. But if you looked at it you realized after 7s or so that it has NOTHING to do with what flash offers at all. If you are on a mac and want to see something that works (unlike the pretty crappy adobe lab project), download the Hype trial. Does the same but really does it :slight_smile:

  4. The HTML5 you talk about here, the html5 that adobe is hinting at etc is exactly the HTML5 I mentioned to be of use too. CSS transitions, CSS3 and the offline - webapp related capabilities added in HTML5

Ever heard of VRML ? :smile:

Well, it was “THE BIGGEST THING” 14 years ago - supposely everyone will be all hook on those 3D web thingy with VR goggles and VRML supposely replace the mangy stale old HTML. Wow, how time flies! Its 2011 and HTML 5 is suppose to be the be all and end all.

The funny thing is, I think Unity started its life as a Web3D solution (back in 2001 - right after the Dot Com crash and bunch of web 3D companies went belly up). The browser plugin was there right at the beginning if I am not mistaken.

Also, I am curious, all these talks about HTML 5 for all kinds of things, I am wondering how feasible it is as content delivery platform - eg. Are you going to deliver your game on it, and how fast before someone ripping all the data out of text based HTML5 (I imagine its similar to X3D/VRML) of your hard work.

I have to disagree with you on HTML5 performance. I recently wrote a game in HTML5 that almost always runs at 60 FPS. Granted its a 2d game but the performance of the canvas element in HTML5 is gaining ground very fast.
Yes performance on phones will need to catch up but really that wont be a problem within 12 months.
At the risk of being accused of self promotion, here it is http://landofpixels.com/

What do you mean by ‘not supported it’. IE has always supported flash or am I missing something here?

VRML wasn’t html. It wasn’t the approved web standard. It didn’t have 200 billion worth of apple backing it 100%. We are already past html4 right now. Html5 is here.

VRML certainly wasn’t an approved web standard. It’s basically a file format that was born when things struggled to even render 3D properly, and browsers were still for sale and competing on features. It never stood a chance. It’s been replaced by X3D though, which is still shit.

It isn’t convered by the official web standard at all, or even had any major backers except one company. By contrast, everything new supports html5. Technically, if html5 and flash has the same install base, then there would be 200 million more devices supporting html5 thanks to apple.

It’s not going away.

Having said this, I still think for web, flash will live on at least another 10 years before people are tired of installing plugins and html5 consigns it to memory.

In fact some experts say it’ll be at least 20 years. But all of them agree, that html5 will be the standard to come, and this is something they never did for flash (despite adobe trying their best).

I will be using html5 purely for interactive web pages with great transitions and nice design, nothing more.

The idea of running all content without needing any plugin (and neither using things like native client) is nice, but its at best a distant theory for a lot of more in depth interactive media mashup content.

I see a lot of actually wrong things posted in this thread, so let´s go through some things:

-Just because html 5 has a fancy name and logo its no set in stone standard which is final and usable and functional in all browsers today.
Rather the opposite, have a look at just how to implement more in depth video playback and streaming controls or music control in a few browsers in html 5 manner and you`ll see how different that is done in a few different browsers and how much that is not a sense making or final in all cases well working usable standard.

Besides that, a few companies can join in and define something as a standard but that only makes it a standard by definition, not a standard that is adopted and used.

Flash, no matter if one likes it or not or whether it is a proprietary plugin tech or not is the web standard for presenting in depth 2D interactive media mashup content on the web. There`s no discussion about that based on facts because there is no better alternative or even just one which allows to do all that can be done in flash right now.

Who says flash is now dead or html 5 is ready to replace it on all fronts has no idea or is intentionally lying.

Just as example: Most money in the game industry is made with micro transaction based games on the web. In which technology?
Most times flash.
Are there game creation tools for html 5 as good as flash or unity ide to make the same kind of games in similar amounts of time and have them run at same or better performance across all browsers?
No.

Most money on other web sites is made with advertising. Advertising is largely presented in which technology on the web?
Flash.

So yeah…

Next up, me myself and many others using things like unity and unreal expect way better performance than flash offers as unity and unreal make proper use of the gpu (unlike flash (other than for video), which will only offer that fully for stuff making use of the new apis for the next flash player)

Still, HTML 5 stuff is on many ends not better performance wise than flash when doing similar things, the contrary, its actually even worse for many things.

Also all those who complain about flash performance should be happy about flash being so dominant, thanks to that it is used for such a high percentage of advertisements. Which means you can disable the flash plugin or install a click to flash like plugin and can browse with a lot less blinky annoying banners. If some time in a few years html 5 is ready to be used and gets used as much for creating the same kind of annoying blinky banners, well, you don’t have much of an option to disable those while still making the website work well (especially not on browsers which don`t offer plugins like click to flash, adblock etc :wink: )

Regarding the Windows 8 remarks:
Windows 8 comes with two versions of many apps, regarding this topic it comes with two versions of IE, one is the version that comes up when launched from the classic windows interface, that one has full support for plugins, so also unity, flash etc.

The other one is the stripped down one that comes up when one launches IE from the metro start menu, that one doesn´t support plugins but has menu item in the corner to open the page in the full IE.

So yeah…

Me myself i complain often enough about lousy flash performance, and Adobe is the one to blame for Flash´s worse getting reputation by not offering upgrades which improve general performance for all content years earlier,
but it just doesn`t make sense to jump onto the “let´s kill flash, html 5 is so much better” bandwagon while that is just no realistic alternative for a lot of interactive media mashup content and those companies yelling it loudest often have other reasons behind the move than just wanting a better performing plugin less alternative (which doesn’t exist in a form that runs as well across all browsers).

To me it looks like flash usage will be less and less for basic website content and yes, more and more basic things will be done in html 5 where applicable; but for a lot of more in depth stuff, people will still do it using a plugin technology or deploy an app for mobiles depending on what´s more sense making from case to case, and that´ll go on like that for quite a while.

Maybe let´s check in again on this topic in 2015 when we can see how much html 5 replaced all the plugin technologies properly in the sense of being able to do all the things one could do in the plugin technologies =)

Yup that about sums it up. Although dismissing HTML5 is equally as stupid as dismissing Flash. Thankfully thanks to haxe, monkey etc, we are able to deploy to them all without much more of a swizzle to the code.

Unity talks about 3D though, and I don’t see webGL being stable for years. So flash it is.

I don’t dismiss html5 completely, i just think its good to keep the facts straight =)
Good to know html+js, as much as one can do what one wants to do with them, is a better choice for web sites and basic web apps,
but when talking about more in depth media mashup content like more complex 2D games or even 3D ones, well, its just complete nonsense to think html5 is anywhere ready to replace plugin driven things like flash or unity in browsers on all fronts on all browsers on all platforms.
Flash is dominating on the web regarding that, unity is the more powerful though less widespread plugin but in return one can also deploy competitive (performancewise) apps/games on most other major platforms with it. Html 5 isn`t close to any of these two in any of the major points talked about.

And yes, me personally id like it more if the Unity team would spend the resources put into creating the flash exporter into other important things, but yeah, on the other side they did well so far with just deploying on all major platforms, so as long as they dont spread themselves too thin i wont argue on that since they gain the advantage that no matter what becomes more dominant, theyre right there =)
Flash could go down and unity is still there, plugins could get blocked or not there at all on all browsers, and unity still allows to create competitive standalone apps. etc. =)

You really don’t think Game Maker has a chance of this with there new html 5 version?

Yeah, i don’t think so =).

HTML5 has no 3d at all, its all about 2D only.

3D would be WebGL which is either performing badly (everything, with Chrome being the “least trashy” one), not supported at all (IE) or not intend to be supported for an undefined amount of time at all (mobiles)

I meant that it has support for plug ins, not flash directly.

I maybe lead the thread to a point where “will flash dissapear in all media?”

But i meant to talk about games, and targeting “facebook games”. Sorry for that.

Facebook making an html5 app-based platform, means that they want much more revenue coming from Safari in iOS.

Project Spartan has at least 80 companies already porting their games to HTML5. Zynga of course is one of them…

Keeping that in mind, it wouldnt surprise me that in a couple of months Facebook will say: “the last day for flash games in facebook will be 31 dec 2012” (or so).

If something like that happens (and i think its very possible reading at the facts), that will be for sure, the “beginning of the end” for profitable flash games.

Becasue the reality is that all non console developers, can see a big oportunity window trough Facebook and iOS for making a very good living, even from their own IPs.
I think that was the really big point of Unity making a flash exporter…

P.S. I know that there will still be more “flash based games websites”, but surely nothing with the facebook potential.

One can’t create 3D games anywhere close to what’s possible in unity with html 5. So since facebook is probably not into blocking all 3D games its not likely at all that they’d block plugins like unity.

Besides that, again, unity has many deploy options for many platforms, so if one is no good option anymore at some point there are various others =)

I could note some arguments for this and that but since i’m smashed after a long work day let’s just leave it at let’s see how this evolves in the next year =)

VRML was more “approved” web standard than say… FLASH. :smile:
It have been accepted as international standards by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO/IEC 14772-1:1997) and adopted by Web3D consortium.

But yeh I know what you mean, its not adopted by W3C consortium so that was its fatal flaw and that’s why it continue to exist in plugin form.