Need a few questions answered on creating a worthwhile MMORPG

News & General Discussion
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This intro is rather long, so please feel free to skip to: THE POINT

First, let me state that I know as much about programming as Trump knows about stylish hair.

However, I have a ton of gaming experience, from tabletop to hardcore raiding in multiple MMOs.

Also, it isn’t as if I lack any talent to bring to the table. Storyline and lore is just as important (albeit, much easier to handle, in my opinion) in any MMORPG, and I have a large portion of the lore prepared. In fact, turning off that part of my mind is like turning off a Viagra and ecstasy fueled Ron Jeremy. Although I fancy myself a storyteller, I can also produce decent conceptual art, which can be refined for use.

Really though, I’ve gotten to the point that MMORPGs just disappoint. I can’t be the only one tired of the same games in different packages. We keep recycling the same garbage. Seriously, I’ve seen fresher convenience store sushi.

I have a ton of ideas for new mechanics that can work in an MMO setting. Class systems can suck it. I can’t stand being forced into a certain play-style, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. The only “balance issues” will be between the weak and the strong players. Sandbox, of course, because that’s the way MMO was always meant to be.

And I get that there are some games out there that aren’t quite so rigid, or have no class systems. Still, they don’t measure up to what I want to play.

Also, I want to allow the ability for players to create content, within limitations, of course.

I’d go into more details, but I’d like to keep the bulk of my ideas to myself, until a later date.

What I want doesn’t even have to look good to be awesome. I mean, look at Oprah (or Minecraft for a more accurate example)

THE POINT:

I’ve come to terms with the fact that I cannot accomplish this alone, and a team of game designers aren’t going to miraculously show up at my doorstep, offering free services, either. I need people who generally know what they are doing, even if inexperienced, and I need to pay them.

Keeping in mind that it will not have nearly the content or the refined graphics that WoW has…

  • What would be the bare minimum team I would need?
  • How much would I need to pay them?
  • How long will the project take to complete (so I can factor in the total amount of wages)
  • Rough costs of equipment would be helpful, too.
  • ANYTHING else I have failed to factor in.

Thanks for the input ahead of time.

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You need at least a couple of programmers and good ones are hard to find and expensive.

You also need artists. You can get stuff on the asset store, but you want to match the art style, which is tough. Assets are not cheap. So you need at least one person familiar with 3d modeling and texturing. Again, a good one is hard to find and expensive.

Then you need writers for lore, quests, NPCs, etc.

You need a UI artist, someone to make the game UI’s and every other UI you need.

You need an animator, or at least someone that can modify animations you buy to fit your characters.

Oh, and you need characters. UMA is good but complex, takes time to learn but worth it, but you will need content for the characters and a system for the players to create their own characters.

Most importantly of all, you will need a network solution. We use Forge3d. Have tried a number of the. Stay away from Atavism unless you wish to make the game that you don’t want to make, like everyone else’s game…I am sure the Atavism crowd will come out to welcome you soon. :slight_smile:

I usually suggest that a person join another team or make other games first. It is the best way to learn.

But since you seem to have the money to pay…

We paid our programmers 15 years ago 50k a year. Probably more now. Via contract probably hourly wages in the hundreds.

Artists, similar to above. A character for example might run you at least $500. True of animators as well and landscape designers.

You might find writers and lore people free or at low cost. You get what you pay for.

Time depends on your scope and the size of your team. A AAA company takes 5-10 years for a game, more WoW like but they have hundreds of people. So an indie game with a team of 10, a long time.

I can’t help you with equipment, but you may have to buy expensive art software like Photoshop and 3dMax/Maya. Server costs can be high. You will need adequate development computers for each team member.

Again, highly suggest you learn a bit more about game development before you tackle an MMO. We are making one and it is time consuming, requires a lot of learning, risky, and sometimes just scary…but it is loads of fun with the right team and if you have the money to spend. :slight_smile: And I mean a lot of money. Crowdfunding is tough these days with all the failed games. Not easy at all if you don’t have a name behind you and haven’t made any other games.

Good luck!

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I appreciate all of the input.

You are correct about crowdfunding.

I’d want something far less spectacular than WoW, or most newly released MMOs, with the appeal coming from new and unique gameplay and the players’ ability to create and manipulate the world (within limitations). The idea would be that players could create a lot of the content themselves, so the lack of initial content wouldn’t such a bad thing.

Also, I wouldn’t expect it to be pretty… so there is that, to cut costs, too.

I think I could handle most of the writing.

Even so, I’m looking at what… 2 million?

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I have no idea, but hey, why not? If you have that kind of money then go get quotes from artists and programmers and then write a design doc, see how long you think it will take to run out of money. :slight_smile:

LOL My programmer says “hire us”! LOL Of course, he is kidding…don’t hire us. Get quotes from people who could actually spend the time to finish your game. :slight_smile:

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You’ll find this much harder to build then you expect. Even for a big team experienced in MMOs.

And then I must ask, why an MMO? Why does your game have to be in that format?

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Don’t be discouraged. The folks who posted above took the time out of their busy schedules to reply because they’re nice people and want to give you the benefit of their experience.

Given where you are right now, build up slowly. Consider doing your world building in a text-based MUD first. You can read about MUD servers here. This will let you bypass a huge number of technical hurdles associated with graphics and networking. You’ll also be able to build a team and a community.

As much as I love Unity, there are no good off-the-self MMO systems for it yet. You’ll be better off with a dedicated MMO engine such as Hero Engine. You could still use Unity, but it will be very time-consuming and expensive. Then again, if you start with, say, a single player RPG, Unity would be a great choice for that.

Even if you were to use Unity for an MMO, throwing millions of dollars at the project is no guarantee of success. (And it would take a huge amount of effort to get an MMO running in Unity.) Look at the ill-fated 38 Studios for example.

By building a non-MMO or a MUD, you’ll hone your project management skills, refine your vision, and get all the other development stuff out of the way so you can focus on graphics and networking later.

Speaking of millions of dollars, keep in mind that crowdfunding is not a way to gain backers. It’s a way to call your existing backers to action, only a small percentage of whom will actually contribute. Don’t even think of crowdfunding until you have a pool of people that’s several times larger than what you’d actually need to meet your funding goals.

All this is to say that you can build your MMO. But it requires a huge commitment of time and money (less money = more time) and the patience to start slowly and accept that there will be plenty of stumbling blocks along the way.

Start with one programmer who can act as a technical lead. This person will provide the primary input on technical decisions, such as which software and hardware to use. Eventually, as you build a team, this person will probably not do any programming but instead coordinate the technical efforts of others. If you decide to jump into full graphics, use something like Hero Engine and find someone experienced with it. If you start with a MUD, find a good MUD server person. My recommendation is to not hire outsourcers to do lots of one-off jobs. You won’t be able to build a cohesive technical system, or a cohesive team, this way.

And good luck!

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@TonyLi

Excellent suggestions, @TonyLi . We had someone recommend Hero Engine to us but decided to go with Unity. There are times when I wish we had done otherwise, but for us, it was the assets we needed, people like you, Tony. We had the programmers and the time. However, if I were to do it again, with the skills I have now and the knowledge I have now, I probably would have gone with Hero Engine, at least at first. A MUD would have been a great idea too, especially since I have experience with them and love them. But alas, we dived in, not sure if it was head or feet first. :slight_smile:

However, I probably would not know what I know now. :slight_smile: Unity is a great tool, the best overall. Not perfect, but none of them are.

I agree, don’t be discouraged, @3LittlePigs . We don’t depend on this to make a living so for us, it is a wondrous meandering journey. Just remember…you are bringing a world to life. It takes time, patience, a good sense of humor, and a lively imagination. If you have those and have another way to make money, then by all means, do it. :slight_smile: I love to have more MMO makers here. There is such a small number of us.

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You can also scale down and build a MORPG.

BYOND is pretty much a MUD tool that has produced some neat stuff, like NEStalgia, described rather accurately as “Dragon Warrior III meets WoW.” It sells on Steam, is created by hobbyists…and, isn’t a half bad game (I play it on occasion.)

Granted, it’s still a lot of work…but it’s at least more feasible.

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Simply because that is what I enjoy playing, the most. I get bored really fast on anything non-MMO… and have now started to get bored with those, too.

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Fair enough. It’s not my place to stop you. However I have to ask, can the experience you are looking for be created without thousands of players? Think about it for a while. You are setting yourself up for a long run that might not ever be finished. And if it is finished it might not actually get the players it needs to succeed. And yet there are very few games that actually need to be MMOs to provide the core experience of the game.

It might be just me, but I’ve picked up a few games lately with MMO tacked on because it’s the in thing. In several cases a single player game would have been a better experience.

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I’d say look to create a sub genre in the MMORPG category. Look at how players interact in today’s games and change it up. Maybe you could make agario.rpg instead of wow or eve online. At least make a small mmo project to see if you even like the setup. You might prefer a smaller multiplayer experience.

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Or just go for it and make the MMORPG that you envision. Never make something you don’t want to make. Keep in mind that any big endeavor requires a huge amount of patience, dedication, and perseverance to overcome failures.

I just realized no one answered your wages question. There’s no single answer. Notch made the first version of Minecraft on his own. Other companies have employed hundreds of people to make AAA MMORPGs. Roughly speaking, you’ll pay decent developers at least $20/hour, often significantly more. I only mention this because if someone offers to work for less, you might as well just give them the money for free because they’re probably worthless for your needs. The total cost and timeframe will depend on whether you leverage existing technology such as Hero Engine or build your own, and how the project is managed. Each of these (existing tech and management) could swing the cost and time by a huge factor, like 10 years instead of 2.

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I have played smaller scale MO games. Starting with Diablo II. Not for me. Though, to be fair, Diablo II was the best of its time AND its lineage.
MMO is the only way, for me.

Yeah, and the problem with those MMOs are that they lack the ability for players to influence the world. If the characters cannot influence the world, then it is simply a MMO-chat room with MO-Gameplay…which is what we’ve seen for years. The closest thing to the contrary is the mass PvP systems in a couple of games (GW2, ESO, and I am thinking of another I can’t recall the name to)…

What I want to create is a means for people to build upon and manipulate the basic MMO environment they are given… and basically a separate world. That’s not going to be pretty… and balance will be and issue (one I think is better left alone)… but at the end of the day, I want to make anything (or almost anything) possible… through XP and other currency expenditure.

Maybe I’m crazy… but I’m tired of skill trees and action bars. I’m tired of crafting caps. I’m tired of bland outfits, and waiting for the next patch to see if anything good comes out. I want the world to be constantly changed by the players. And, if you start out with a small world…that’s ok, because you have given the players the means to expand on it.

Maybe I’m just crazy, though.

I feel like too many developers are too worried about creating their worlds (MMO environment) and less worried about creating something that players can influence. At the end of the day, everything is far too rigid. We will only come closer to a true alternate world when we relinquish a certain amount of control over it, and hand some power to the players. I think that is scary for developers… They want to create a ratatouille… what I want to create is more like stone soup.

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No more crazy then something like MineCraft. I’m just challenging you, many wannabe MMO decs simply want to make one because they are cool. Seems like you have an experience that needs the MMO platform.

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These two things alone make me feel like you “get it.”

That in itself has a certain amount of satisfaction.

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So the idea has merit. There are two ways I could see you approaching this.

The first is to approach an existing small studio with a good track record. Pitch the idea and an offer of funding. If you can convince an existing studio to make the game, then it probably has legs. You might loose some of the creative control of the project with this approach. It puts you in the position of an investor or financer.

The other alternative is to start your own studio. Employ people directly to make the game for you. This puts you more in the business management role. If you are going to go this way I would strongly suggest doing a smaller project or two first. That way you and your team can make all of the starting out mistakes on a smaller time frame.

As a disclaimer I personally have never attempted anything this big. It’s entirely possible in completely off base.

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I like this new guy.

Maybe you can draw some inspiration from albion online? It’s brand new and has a focus on not having classes and players being able to own land and build on it which builds up the world. Doing any action increases your proficiency in it, making future attempts at whatever it is yield more results.

Any thoughts on voxel terrain? Do you want people to only build upon the ground with prefabs or dig into the terrain, shape mountains, and build things with materials free-form / block by block?

I like the idea of expanding the world, and albion’s setup might be a good example to follow there too. The map is broken up into clusters. You don’t have to worry about managing an infinite world because there are little gates on the end of variably sized maps that transition to other maps.

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I don’t think this is true. I happen to know quite a few developers’ whose game designs are about player choice and influence rather than about making the game they want to play or control. True with AAA, but not indie. Albion is a just one of many examples.

The difference is that the Indie developers are still in the midst of making their games so you don’t hear as much about them.

Yeah, we all want to think our game is the “one” special game that will break all the rules. But the concept of player content and player influencing the world has been around for a while…there are even several AAA games that have touched upon it recently. Very difficult for a game with millions of users to switch gears though, so the WoW’s of the world are still the predominate game. Also, very hard to compete with the AAA big games, like Landmark and others.

From what you have told us, your game is no different from mine or any of the other MMO creators I have met here. We are all bored with the games out there, all making “different” games, all wanting to change the course of the MMO genre. And…ironically, we are all going in a similar direction. :slight_smile:

Games like Minecraft and even single player games that allow player content have taught us all something.

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Ooo, I want to see that map idea in action. I guess I will play this game. lol When will it be available? I know release is March or sometime.

Oh forgot, Founder’s fee. lol I can wait. Looked at the website, looks very nice and professional. Definitely gives the player a LOT of control. One thing it does not have is player created content, such as uploading models, but that is a huge nightmare in MMO’s so can see why that isn’t there.

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The open beta is after the closed beta, which started like a week ago, and will go on for a few months. So… march, maybe, sure :smile:

It’s pretty nice. I’ve thought about doing it before, but my game ideas never make it that far. I end up with a handful of mechanics in 1 scene. Or a hub that leads to random spaces instead of a fake-infinite world stitched together properly on the edges.

That’s only for closed beta access :slight_smile:

I have an experiment in another thread for that. Haven’t made much progress on it since my myos arrived in the mail, but it appears to be super simple. Albion is using unity so they could totally do it too. But uh… I have a feeling they don’t want certain models to appear in their game world. Or they don’t want people to grief the mobile hardware by putting in models with way too many faces :stuck_out_tongue: